I just bought the Knew Concept fret saw, and I don't like it.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I think we're all pretty much in agreement here. I'm almost of the mind that the Knew Concept saw was not originally developed for the use of wasting out dovetails, but was advertised by a few tool bloggers that it can do an excellent job at it. I wish tool reviews/bloggers would adhere to a caveat of stating "well this is a very fine tool to do such and such, there are also scads of other tools out there also fully capable of doing the job".

Personally, the Knew Concept looks a little too space age for my tastes. I suppose I could make my own coping saw with a very ridged frame, relying simply on a fine thread screw device to tension the blade, but to what avail? I will still need to pare some waste!

[Jim Koepke]

To me, the KC saw looks great. There isn't likely to be one in my shop even if my Lottery numbers come in.

I suppose I could make my own coping saw with a very ridged frame, relying simply on a fine thread screw device to tension the blade, but to what avail? I will still need to pare some waste!

Having tried sawing the waste out a few times and seeing that chisel work is still needed has me back to mostly chopping my waste with a chisel.

jtk

[John Powers]

Well I guess that's the nub. The creator made a saw and people touted it as the second coming. As if it would benefit the user in a big way. And thats the rub. If you have to chop you use the $15.00 saw or opt for the big bucks. The retrofit handle was to me too much.

[Derek Cohen]

I think we're all pretty much in agreement here. I'm almost of the mind that the Knew Concept saw was not originally developed for the use of wasting out dovetails, but was advertised by a few tool bloggers that it can do an excellent job at it. I wish tool reviews/bloggers would adhere to a caveat of stating "well this is a very fine tool to do such and such, there are also scads of other tools out there also fully capable of doing the job".

Personally, the Knew Concept looks a little too space age for my tastes. I suppose I could make my own coping saw with a very ridged frame, relying simply on a fine thread screw device to tension the blade, but to what avail? I will still need to pare some waste!

Hi Tony, I am not having a go at you - just that you raised some points which I think summarise much of the comments that came before. Cheers.

I wasn't planning on posting again in this thread, which I considered to be a train wreck of some of the silliest comments I've read for a while on SMC. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some here appear to just want to be heard as they have little or no knowledge of the fretsaw in question, or perhaps have little understanding of dovetailing, or both.

First of all, the KC fretsaw is just that, a fretsaw. It is not a coping saw. KC do make a coping saw. It is an excellent coping saw - ask Chris Schwarz, who is very fussy about coping saws - and, like the fretsaw, it is expensive compared to what else is available.

CS review: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...pts-coping-saw

The cost of a tool is a factor that comes up often on this forum. I am not saying that “value” is an irrelevant matter for many amateur woodworkers, but it is not the same for all … and there is clearly a considerable amount of double standards evident here. How many here consider it acceptable to purchase a Wenzloff dovetail saw, a Lie-Nielsen smoother, a Veritas LA Jack, CBN grinding wheels … Should we talk cars, guitars and whatever?

I do have a bone in this fight. No, I do not have a vested interest in the sales of the KC saws. It is just that I consider Lee Marshall, who manufactures the KC saws, a friend and know him as a genuine, straight-up bloke, who would be distressed by the accusation that his saws are a rip off, or even that they do not work as well as they are designed to do. (Having stated this, I agree about the handle - which I have written about, even posted alternatives ... ).

The fretsaw began life as a saw for jewellers. KC has a strong following in the jewellery world. The only reason that they have a presence now in the woodworking world is because I talked Lee into making the fretsaw for woodworkers. If you read my original review you would understand how little he knew about dovetailing. The design evolved. I had some input early on, but not since the birdcage version.


Original review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tsFretsaw.html

Contrary to what many seem to believe by the posts here, a tool only supplements the hand. Good tools do a better job than poor tools, but the hand still moves the tool the last time I checked. If you cannot saw a straight line, it may be technique. Then again you could have a crappy blade with poor set. Or a poor frame where the blade wanders about? The KC fretsaw does make it easier to saw to a straight line.

What a fretsaw does not do is eliminate the need for chisels. Where on Earth did this idea come from? Some prefer to chop out the waste, and some prefer to pare out the remainder after the bulk is sawn out, either with a fretsaw or a coping saw. A fretsaw requires less saw cuts than a coping saw. Either way one needs to pare out the remainder. Have you chopped really hard wood? Have you chopped Pine without taking chunks out? Get real!

My early response to the OP was aimed at determining what was wrong with the KC fretsaw he owned. I know it is a bloody good saw, and that either he had a dud sample or was using it incorrectly. It could have been any other tool. My first inclination is not to have a go at the saw and the toolmaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

I wasn't planning on posting again in this thread, which I considered to be a train wreck of some of the silliest comments I've read for a while on SMC.
Derek

I really think you are exaggerating Derek. I've seen much much worse! It's just the age old debate between lovers of expensive stuff and the more thrifty lot.

Recently I am happy with my bowsaw. Saves quite a bit of time on chiseling, even when I leave quite a bit to the baseline. And the good thing, it is stiff, quick to setup and very cheap.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm one of those who erroneously posted about Olsen coping saws when I should have paid more attention to the fact that this thread was about a fret saw.

Apologies for this.

[David Weaver]

I stand by my comments,
* the saw seemed like it would be nice to use for fretwork or jewelry work (I had the original 5" aluminum saw). It could be used for dovetails, but no better than a coping saw.
* I'm sure lee is a nice guy, I have never seen otherwise. We have a problem in the boutique world where it's suggested more often that we buy tools from "nice guys", the same guys who run the circuit of the WIA shows and all include each other in their blogs. I'm sure most of them are nice guys. We're all "friends", as long as we're buying and promoting. I've gotten PMs every once in a while from "nice guys" that I need to "shut up" because (to paraphrase it), customers are fair game and it is only acceptable to promote or withhold any opinions otherwise. Lee is not in that category, and I wouldn't ever expect him to be, I've only ever heard that he's top shelf.
* it's not making the finish cut (something I pointed out long ago, money in tooling is generally spent on speed or precision. This is an area where all of the devices in a hand with even moderate experience work at about the same speed, and the precision is misplaced because it is not a job of precision to remove waste and do the precise work later with a chisel)
* I sold mine. I would've actually appreciated, especially in case sized dovetails, if it was a little heavier.
* The handle thing is something I don't get at all. Two handles and a user could have a used midi lathe and make as many as they'd like.

I think three other things come to mind:
* I really don't know why anyone would use Chris Schwarz's opinion as an indicator of much of anything unless he's relaying something a professional (who is not a tool seller) said. That can be taken a lot of ways, but specifically what I mean is that there is a whole world of professional woodworkers who have more relevant opinions. Chris's opinions will allow you to "blame the tool" and justify buying from the circle of "nice guys" and bloggers, though. I guess.
* I think you're overreacting because you have bias in this in the form of time spent promoting lee's stuff

It's perfectly fine for people to buy the saw and the handle, especially if someone is buying them like I buy sharpening stones and razors (which is a matter of fascination and not a utility based purchase). It's also fine if someone decides they really really want that saw and handle even if money is tight. It's also fine to recognize that this isn't really a place that the average person is going to get any long term utility in terms of dollars spent.

[lowell holmes]

Thanks for replying. I just never considered sharpening a coping or bow saw blade. You opened my eyes.

They are from Tools for Working Wood and are cross cut (I believe, I'm not looking at one right now).

I made a bowsaw using their kit. I made it using curly maple. The maple's not good for a bow saw. I'm going to make another using qs white oak.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I'm one of those who erroneously posted about Olsen coping saws when I should have paid more attention to the fact that this thread was about a fret saw.

Apologies for this.

I'm in the same boat Hilton!

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm in the same boat Hilton!

Just don't fret too much Tony.

[Daniel Rode]

The OP is learning to cut dovetails. He bought an expensive fret saw to "speed up the process" and was not impressed with the result over his regular coping saw.

I think discussing the relative merits of coping vs fret saws and premium vs regular brands is right on topic.

My $0.02 is that a fret saw might help in some cases because it the small thin blade can turn 90 degrees in the kerf from a dovetail saw. So perhaps a little less cleanup on the start side of the cut? I come in at a slight angle with my coping saw. I takes one pass at the end to reduce the sloped start. Since I'm not doing any fretwork, there's not much incentive for me to buy a fret saw. Plus, the blades are more delicate and break more often (or so I'm told).

As for the premium KC fret and coping saw frames, I do not believe there is any advantage using the KC saw for cleaning up dovetail waste. None.

There is nothing wrong with buying a premium tool just because you like the design or materials or whatever but a titanium alloy shovel may not dig a hole any faster.

[Mike Brady]

Actually, Derek, the responder who inquired about cutting to a line with the saw was posing a fair question. Is the saw good enough to allow the skilled user to saw dovetail waste to a line? What do jewelry crafters do? Do they saw close and then file to their pattern marks, or is it one and done? I think that is what the detractors are asking in so many other words.

[george wilson]

Derek: THIS thread is not a trainwreck!!! Try reading the silly saw nib thread!!! Even supposed woodworkers like Shepherd thing the round nib is for starting cuts. It's just amazing.

[Jim Belair]

I stand by my comments, ....

And those comments, as summarized in your latest post, are bang on IMHO. Thank you for making them.

[Derek Cohen]

Actually, Derek, the responder who inquired about cutting to a line with the saw was posing a fair question. Is the saw good enough to allow the skilled user to saw dovetail waste to a line? What do jewelry crafters do? Do they saw close and then file to their pattern marks, or is it one and done? I think that is what the detractors are asking in so many other words.

Mike, the question you ask was already given - no one attempts to saw to a baseline. I certainly do not - I remove as much waste as possible and pare the remainder. Does anyone here? The only person I know who did this was Frank Klausz, who made up a special blade for his bowsaw, and this was just a gimmick (his results were somewhat coarse).

As to jewellers and how they saw, I have no idea - ask George whether a saw is all they use. I doubt it.

Regards from Perth

Derek