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Thread: Adjusting Stanley Planes

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Maybe I will give Kroll a try Dave. I don't have a heat gun, tapping does not work. I tried levering a screwdriver with a large wrench. I think I would have broken the screwdriver before the screw gave in. So far I can't get either screw to budge.

    I put the #6C plane back together. I was able to position the frog right up against the appropriate section of the mouth. Unfortunately the adjusting wheel runs the blade into the far side of the mouth before the blade can get out past the plane's bottom.
    It is possible someone who didn't know any better used loctite or some other product on the threads.

    Mike, do you have a way of taking pictures to post here? It would be helpful in understanding what is taking place.

    It sounds like you may have the blade installed incorrectly.

    Will come back later, SWMBO is calling.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  2. #17
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    It isn't easy to get descriptive pictures with a cell phone & the strange light in this area of my shop but I tried a few times and I think these are the most descriptive even if they are somewhat flawed:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/macholbrooks/

    I elected to link to larger pictures in the hope that the subject can be seen better, hope this helps. I placed descriptions and comments with the Flicker pictures that I hope are helpful.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-18-2014 at 10:05 AM.

  3. #18
    The frog does not have to move unless you are having problems with too tight a mouth or something. My frog from the same era plane has not been moved in over thirty years.

    The frog adjustment does not affect the blade projection. You talk about the blade adjusting screw being too far out. It is possible that the fork (lever between the the cap iron and adjusting screw) was put in backwards. You can probably see if this is the case.

    Try the plane and see how it works. You may be looking for problems that don't exist.

  4. #19
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    Thanks for the help Warren.

    I understand that once properly set the frog may never need to be moved at all. I am also a little confused because the frog on this plane appears to be in the position in needs to be in. Still, the problem is my plane blades (both the stanley blade & chipbreaker and a new Veritas blade & cap iron) are running into the far side of the planes body, at the mouth, before the blade extends out of the mouth. I believe this is the "too tight a mouth" problem Warren refers to. I have #5, #4 & #3 Stanley planes and a Sargent #5 that I have adjusted into operational condition without this problem.

    The only difference I can see is the frozen screws on the frog prevent me from adjusting the frog adjusting screw. I may have referred to the frog adjusting wheel as being quite far out in a place or two, the wheel not the adjusting screw. My reference there is just to explain that I seem to be at an outer limit of the plane adjusting wheel just to get the blade close to extended far enough to contact wood. My confusion is the frog seems to be properly placed but I still seem to have the "tight mouth" issue.

    Warren I took my #5 apart and compared the fork portion of the blade adjusting assembly to that of my #6 plane. The two forks are quite close in appearance/angle at various depths on the screw they move on. The #6 fork may have a little less angle, via wheel movement, reflected in it's fork but not much as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-19-2014 at 1:12 AM.

  5. #20
    If you loosen the two screws on the top side of the frog, you can take off the frog and make sure the frog is not frozen to the bed. Also you will have better access to the threads of the frog adjustment screw for lubricating.

    If you can remove the little screw just above the frog adjusting screw, you can remove the little plate that engages the frog screw. This will take the frog adjustment screw completely out of the equation. You can still adjust the frog and clamp it down tight withthe upper screws when it is where you want it.

  6. #21
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    Photos are a bit fuzzy, but i do have a DE6c, with a Berg "Shark" iron on it
    IMAG0059.jpg
    The frog behind the frog. I might get a better chip breaker, someday. I am at the end of the bolt with the wheel
    IMAG0060.jpg
    The "Shark" from Berg. Chip breaker was a union, as Union made this plane for Diamond Edge
    IMAG0061.jpg
    Where my frog sits. I might move it forward, maybe by a blond hair, this maybe a bit older than yours.
    IMAG0063.jpg
    with it all in place. On another plane:IMAG0116.jpgSargent #414c, right up to the ramp. Both of these planes have BIG ramps. On a "Eclipse" #4 i picked the other day, the "ramp" was more of a speed bump. I rested the front edge of the frog right on the middle of the "bump"
    IMAG0060.jpg
    Seemed to work out, thoughIMAG0062.jpg

    As for "tight mouth" adjust the frog back a bit. Then adjust the chipbreaker back from the edge of the iron a tiny bit. That Eclipse plane, when i picked it up, had a very tight mouth.....bevel up, instead of bevel down.......with the chipbreaker resting ON the bevel, no less.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Still, the problem is my plane blades (both the stanley blade & chipbreaker and a new Veritas blade & cap iron) are running into the far side of the planes body, at the mouth, before the blade extends out of the mouth.
    This sounds like a problem I had dropping a LV PM-V11 blade into a LN #4-1/2. Pardon the untechnical language... the tab from the frog that extends into the blade was mismatched to the hole in the chip breaker. Choosing between narrowing the tab or widening the hole, I widened the hole. It was harder but blades are cheaper to replace.
    AKA - "The human termite"

  8. #23
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    Warren, I have had the frog off several times. I set it straight up in a yogurt cup for a while so Goof Off, WD 40...could work down into the screw better. The smaller higher screw is just as stuck as the adjuster screw is. If you look at my pictures closely you may see a small piece missing on the screw that holds the plate/keeper in place, that is a result of my last effort to torque a screwdriver in the slot via a wrench. I have moved the frog around on the plane body within the limits allowed by the frozen blade adjustment assembly. I will experiment with these adjustments again though as I have achieved somewhat different results via those methods.

    Steven I think we have similar models of the #6 as my lever cap also lacks Stanley printed on it. My adjusting wheel also appears to be the smaller size as yours appears to be... I achieved my picture of the blade set in the mouth by moving the cap iron back a little further than it would normally reside. I will do some more experimenting with this modification as well though. So far the only way I have been able to get the blade on my #6 past the mouth has been to skew the blade dramatically with the side to side lever. I am wondering if I may have some Frankenplane part that looks right but isn't exactly right? I have experimented both with the Stanley blade (V type logo) and the Veritas blade & cap iron. Although the Veritas blade & cap iron are a little thicker, the Stanely chipbreaker makes that part of the Stanley plane wider than the Veritas.

    Chuck the tab on my #6 frog seems to fit in the hole in both the Stanley and Veritas blade assemblies and work properly. I will double check that suggestion too though.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-19-2014 at 1:14 AM.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Photos are a bit fuzzy, but i do have a DE6c, with a Berg "Shark" iron on it
    IMAG0059.jpg
    The frog behind the frog. I might get a better chip breaker, someday. I am at the end of the bolt with the wheel
    IMAG0060.jpg
    The "Shark" from Berg. Chip breaker was a union, as Union made this plane for Diamond Edge
    IMAG0061.jpg
    Where my frog sits. I might move it forward, maybe by a blond hair, this maybe a bit older than yours.
    IMAG0063.jpg
    with it all in place. On another plane:IMAG0116.jpgSargent #414c, right up to the ramp. Both of these planes have BIG ramps. On a "Eclipse" #4 i picked the other day, the "ramp" was more of a speed bump. I rested the front edge of the frog right on the middle of the "bump"
    IMAG0060.jpg
    Seemed to work out, thoughIMAG0062.jpg

    As for "tight mouth" adjust the frog back a bit. Then adjust the chipbreaker back from the edge of the iron a tiny bit. That Eclipse plane, when i picked it up, had a very tight mouth.....bevel up, instead of bevel down.......with the chipbreaker resting ON the bevel, no less.
    The frog on that plane and the casting setup appears to me to suggest that the maker wants the iron resting on the casting, which several years ago would've caused people to have a stroke (because all of the "wisdom" told us to close the mouth of the plane, something that's relatively pointless on a common pitch plane). I would've poo pooed that type, too.

    But with that casting being solid and allowing you to rest the iron on the casting while the frog just needs to line up relatively close behind it, and with the eskilstuna iron, it should make for a very nice plane to use.

    Eskilstuna irons were probably the best of the vintage irons made for bailey planes, though there are a lot of good ones if they are used in the context they were designed for (that is, with the cap iron set properly so that the plane stays in the cut longer, and using a shaving thicker than a thousandth or two, and saving the last pass of getting the brightest surface possible for those very thin shavings).

  10. #25
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    IF the edge of the irons are square, then the frog is sitting at an angle to the mouth. Lossen ONE frog bolt, swing the frog aroung just a bit each way. Bolts should be in the same spot in the slotted holes in the frog. Sometimes, when tightening them down tight, they tend to wander a bit. BTDT. A straight screwdriver blade works nicely to move the frog a bit, too.

  11. #26
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    Mike,

    You may have a problem that is not uncommon with planes. The mouth may be too tight from the factory. More than one of my planes has had this problem. Most often it happens when installing a new, thicker blade.

    Before assuming this is the problem make sure the blade is seating on the frog properly. There should not be much of a gap between the blade and he face of the frog.

    Here is a picture of how it should not look:

    Plane View.jpg

    This can be caused by a few thing such as the lateral adjuster not being properly seated in a blade's slot.

    If all else is correct, then you may need to remove a little bit of metal from the front of the mouth.

    You will need a thin flat file. My preference is to use files known as safety files. They only have teeth on one or two sides so as to not cut into unwanted areas. A regular file is fine if you are careful at the sides of the mouth. I have even used one of my auger files for opening a plane's mouth.

    My preference if to file from the sole of the plane toward the inside of the plane. Most of the time the plane is mounted in a vise, being careful not to over tighten, the plane is mounted at an angle so the file can be held flat.

    The Stanley/Bailey planes are cast iron which is somewhat soft. The metal comes off rather quick. It is helpful to scribe a line just a little back from the edge being filed. File a little and check the progress. It is always easy to file a little more if needed. It is impossible to file less if it was taken too far.

    In your case, with a frog that isn't going to move, I would first check the back of the mouth. Set a steel rule or other thin flat object on the frog and slide it down toward the mouth. If it can stay flat on the frog and not bump the back edge of the mouth, then you will need to remove metal from the front of the mouth. If it does catch at the mouth then you will need to file a little off of the back of the mouth to correct this. As much as possible you want to keep that angle the same as the face of the frog. It can be a tedious process to remove the frog, file a touch, check and repeat as necessary. Once it is done, the plane should be a great user.

    For more information on opening up the mouth use the SMC search function with > file plane mouth < as the search term to find a lot of posts on this subject.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 11-18-2014 at 1:40 PM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #27
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    Oh, it is a very nice one to use. Makes full width "ribbons", too. This plane HAD a 2-1/4" wide Stanley "V" logo on it. Traded that wrong iron from the Shark @ 2-3/8" wide. Edge is straight, might go back and add a wee bit of camber at the corners.

    This is the plane that arrived in the mail in two pieces. Refurb with a Union 6c base that matches the older Union DE6C base. Refund paid for all the parts, too.

  13. #28
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    Although there are probably a host of minor elements at play I think Jim's suggestion about increasing the planes mouth may be the ultimate solution. I finally got the blade out, although there is practically no place for the shavings to go. My best guess is someone set this particular #6 up for very fine shavings which is about the opposite of what I plan to use it for. As someone suggested above the prior owner may have locked the frog adjustment assembly in place with one of the thread glue/holders. As tight as the tolerances are in the mouth of this plane, it is hard to adjust the blade side to side or up & down. The blade touching the mouth causes interference. It also looks to me like the forward edge of the mouth is not quite straight making it even tougher to position the blade.

    I plan to work the mouth a little, as Jim suggests above. I hope straightening the front edge and adding a little slope will free up the blade and adjustment assembly even without opening it wider much.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-19-2014 at 9:16 PM.

  14. #29
    WD-40 and Goof Off are not designed to break loose rusted screws. Use Kroil or something similar. Then tap the frog adjusting screw from all angles with a punch & hammer. Heat it up good and hot as well, but let it cool before trying to turn it. I've never seen one that wouldn't come loose, and see no reason why anybody would use loctite to hold one in place. With the 2 screws holding the frog in place, the adjusting screw would stay right where it was set.

    The frog looks too far forward in your pictures. That would explain the blade hitting the front of the throat. Don't start filing out the throat until you make sure it has to be done.
    Last edited by Mel Miller; 11-19-2014 at 10:53 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Miller View Post
    ...see no reason why anybody would use loctite to hold one in place.
    People often do things without rhyme or reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Miller View Post
    The frog looks too far forward in your pictures. That would explain the blade hitting the front of the throat. Don't start filing out the throat until you make sure it has to be done.
    In this image of the plane's mouth there appears to be a glint of the base between the frog's face and the edge of the mouth:

    MH's Plane Mouth.jpg

    I may not be seeing this clearly, but that is why I thought the blade might be lifted a little forward by the frog's position.

    I agree that all other avenues are worth pursuing before filing.

    I would be tempted to remove the frog from the plane and carefully secure it in a vise. Not too tight!

    Then I would try using a wrench on the tab to see if it could be turned at all. It sits in a cavity so it won't be able to be turned more than a degree or two, but it might help to loosen at least the one screw. If all else failed the tab could be removed and the frog adjusted as it was done before there were adjustment screws.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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