Garage/Shop electrical questions

[steven c newman]

One other option here. In the garage I used for a while as a shop, the Power Company had installed a second meter on the garage itself. Two electric bills, but not not much of a biggie. Check with the electric company about having a seperate meter to the garage, and then you can hook into the breaker box for just the garage.

[Russel De Arman]

Russel...post some pics of what you have so we are clear what you are talking about. You've confused me pretty good with "double-breaker" talk so I'd like to be clearer.

Will do. They follow...
Yes, this is the main panel, it is the first panel after the meter.
On the left:
The top 60a/60a pair are listed as "Main Ltg"...lighting I assume
Below that, the paired 50a/50a is listed: A/C
Then the 20a/20a pair that feed the close by 240 outlet
ON the right:
Top 20a/20a pair used to feed a window a/c unit, currently, unused
Middle 20a/20a pair feed the two circuits in the garage




and the bottom 50a/50a pair feed a sub panel:



The only thing I know for sure is that one breaker controls the lighting and outlets in the addition that was built in the mid 70's. The others must control other circuits in the house but I haven't mapped them yet. To make matters even more confusing, there is yet another sub panel in the laundry room that controls most of the house (laundry, a/c blower, outlets, etc, but not ALL). Sheesh.

[Rollie Meyers]

The OP HAS to use 2 pole breakers, or handle ties on single pole breakers, in that Milbank panel, if not then it does not meet the six disconnect rule that the panel needs to continue to be in harmony with, a paraphrased "6 disconnect rule" is where no more then six throws of the hand is needed to disconnect power, just my opinion but I never liked it where there is no main breaker/ disconnect.

[Julie Moriarty]

Russel, at the very least, remove those two single pole breakers tied together with wire and replace it with a single two pole breaker. I've seen many situations where that wire failed to work and one leg was left hot and it fed back through the dead leg. If you decide to upgrade the feeders to your garage, buy the wire and match the breaker accordingly. This link can help you figure out what you need.

Yes, this is the main panel, it is the first panel after the meter.
On the left:
The top 60a/60a pair are listed as "Main Ltg"...lighting I assume
Below that, the paired 50a/50a is listed: A/C
Then the 20a/20a pair that feed the close by 240 outlet
ON the right:
Top 20a/20a pair used to feed a window a/c unit, currently, unused
Middle 20a/20a pair feed the two circuits in the garage

Is that 60A 2-pole breaker feeding the sub panel? I've never heard of a 60A feed for lights and I've been doing this for 40 years.
The 50A breaker for the AC unit is most likely too large. Even back in the 70s, when I first started in the trades, AC units required nothing more than 40A breakers. The breaker needs to be properly sized to protect not only the wire, but the condenser too.

What's the distance from the house to the garage?

I've worked on systems worse than this but whenever I go into an old installation I check everything before adding anything. Too many DIYers tackle electrical installations they are not qualified to do just to save a few bucks, thinking nothing about their safety or the safety of their family. Occasionally I volunteer to do electrical work for the needy. We we fix safety issues and don't charge for our services. Maybe there's something like that in your area and they would be willing to look at your system and see if it's safe.

Rollie, of course there's a main breaker! Just pull off the meter!

[Rollie Meyers]

Russel, at the very least, remove those two single pole breakers tied together with wire and replace it with a single two pole breaker. I've seen many situations where that wire failed to work and one leg was left hot and it fed back through the dead leg. If you decide to upgrade the feeders to your garage, buy the wire and match the breaker accordingly. This link can help you figure out what you need.



Is that 60A 2-pole breaker feeding the sub panel? I've never heard of a 60A feed for lights and I've been doing this for 40 years.
The 50A breaker for the AC unit is most likely too large. Even back in the 70s, when I first started in the trades, AC units required nothing more than 40A breakers. The breaker needs to be properly sized to protect not only the wire, but the condenser too.

What's the distance from the house to the garage?

I've worked on systems worse than this but whenever I go into an old installation I check everything before adding anything. Too many DIYers tackle electrical installations they are not qualified to do just to save a few bucks, thinking nothing about their safety or the safety of their family. Occasionally I volunteer to do electrical work for the needy. We we fix safety issues and don't charge for our services. Maybe there's something like that in your area and they would be willing to look at your system and see if it's safe.

Rollie, of course there's a main breaker! Just pull off the meter!

But very foolish for a DIYer to do it that way, & lots of PoCos take a very dim view of tampering with their cash register.

[Russel De Arman]

The OP HAS to use 2 pole breakers, or handle ties on single pole breakers, in that Milbank panel, if not then it does not meet the six disconnect rule that the panel needs to continue to be in harmony with, a paraphrased "6 disconnect rule" is where no more then six throws of the hand is needed to disconnect power, just my opinion but I never liked it where there is no main breaker/ disconnect.

I'm not comfortable with it either Rollie...but thanks for the info as to why it is the way it is

But very foolish for a DIYer to do it that way, & lots of PoCos take a very dim view of tampering with their cash register.

Wouldn't dream of it

Russel, at the very least, remove those two single pole breakers tied together with wire and replace it with a single two pole breaker. I've seen many situations where that wire failed to work and one leg was left hot and it fed back through the dead leg. If you decide to upgrade the feeders to your garage, buy the wire and match the breaker accordingly. This link can help you figure out what you need.
Thanks for the link

Is that 60A 2-pole breaker feeding the sub panel? I've never heard of a 60A feed for lights and I've been doing this for 40 years.
The 50A breaker for the AC unit is most likely too large. Even back in the 70s, when I first started in the trades, AC units required nothing more than 40A breakers. The breaker needs to be properly sized to protect not only the wire, but the condenser too.
I'll check the unit to see what it requires

What's the distance from the house to the garage?
Approx 40' from the panel

I've worked on systems worse than this but whenever I go into an old installation I check everything before adding anything. Too many DIYers tackle electrical installations they are not qualified to do just to save a few bucks, thinking nothing about their safety or the safety of their family. Occasionally I volunteer to do electrical work for the needy. We we fix safety issues and don't charge for our services. Maybe there's something like that in your area and they would be willing to look at your system and see if it's safe.
I got a name of a reasonable *licensed* guy to come over and just check it and we'll go from there

[Steve Meliza]

Ok, I though it was a subpanel because it lacked a main breaker. Without a main breaker what is to keep your from overloading your service entrance?

It sounds to me like you have this man panel with 6 pair of 2-pole breaks and at least two sub panels fed from it. It might not hurt to spend some time tracing out the system and re-labeling everything. You have "A/C" listed in two of the panels and a lot of writing that doesn't look very legible.

[Russel De Arman]

It might not hurt to spend some time tracing out the system and re-labeling everything. You have "A/C" listed in two of the panels and a lot of writing that doesn't look very legible.

Absolutely Steve, that project is on the list for tomorrow...just takes a while since I have to do it by myself, lol, turn the lights on, flip a breaker, go see what's off...rinse and repeat.
R

[Julie Moriarty]

I got a name of a reasonable *licensed* guy to come over and just check it and we'll go from there

Good to hear that. Let's hope his license was granted because of his expertise.

But very foolish for a DIYer to do it that way, & lots of PoCos take a very dim view of tampering with their cash register.

That's why I put a after my comment.

But you have to admit, there's no shortage of foolishness in the DIY electrical world. What I've seen over the past 40 years makes me wonder why it's so easy to buy electrical panels and such at a home center but not a furnace.

[Pat Barry]

But very foolish for a DIYer to do it that way, & lots of PoCos take a very dim view of tampering with their cash register.

Our power company up in northern Mn told me I could pull the meter myself, just so long as I tell them right before I do it and then tell them when its put back in. They would then have someone come back out and seal the meter.