Auto Blast Gates & Oneida Pro 2000

[Charles Joy]

I am in the process of purchasing a Pro 2000 Oneida cyclone with a 5hp motor. I have built my own pneumatic 6" Clear Vue blast gates that are triggered by the power of each tool.

Ideally I would like to add a remote signal (not a key fob) to each blast gate solenoid box that would send a signal to the dust collector to come on and run for a minimum of two minutes or so. If that is overly complicated I would like to run 24 volts from each blast gate control box to the contactor of the cyclone. I would also like to incorporate a bin sensor into this circuitry as well.

I am familiar and comfortable with wiring high and low voltage but not so good with designing control circuits.

I would be happy to pay someone for their time and expertise. Please send me a PM if interested.

Kind regards, Chuck

[Mark Bolton]

Its not to your question but assume you know that Oneida (through Leeson or Baldor I believe) has a minimum recommendation for the amount of times per hour you cycle the cyclone. I want to say it was something like 6. With auto gates you could easily trigger your cyclone dozens of times an hour if your not careful. I could see the advantage of auto gate opening but I have never seen the advantage of tool triggered starting of the cyclone. Its a big enough DC that when your working you just leave it running.

Just my 0.02

[Charles Joy]

Mark I am aware of the maximum # of cycles Oneida recommends. I want to add a delay on break relay that makes the cyclone run a minimum of 5 - 10 mins.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Could you add some profile info? Where are you located?

[Mark Bolton]

Mark I am aware of the maximum # of cycles Oneida recommends. I want to add a delay on break relay that makes the cyclone run a minimum of 5 - 10 mins.

Understood. I guess it could be handy and I guess a lot depends on type of work and work flow. I had a remote in my shop for a while and it got to the point that I just never carried the remote around any longer. When you begin working or breaking down material virtually every tool you use requires DC with perhaps only short breaks in between. Leaving the DC running with the gates closed is drawing very little juice (much less than starting and stopping). Loss of heat in the winter (if it applies) would sure be a good reason to run the DC as little as possible though!

Just seems like a lot of work.

[Alan Schaffter]

If you Google me and "autogates" here you'll see I have had an automated DC system with machine triggered electro-pneumatic autogates in my shop for the past 10 years or so. There used to be a video tour of my DC system on the American Woodworker website, but it is gone now. We need more info- how are your autogates triggered, how are the solenoid valves powered, etc.

As to the DC motor cycling issue- I set my system up so a current sensor on the (centrally located) transformer that powers all autogate solenoid valves senses when any gate has been opened automatically or manually (I have buttons to open gates if I am using the DC as a vac or to clean my filters). Unlike the current sensors at the machine outlets that cause the autogates to open whenever a machine is powered, the switch on this current sensor only closes momentarily. It is connected to the start circuit in my three wire control system where it closes a latching relay which powers my DC. IT DOES NOT TURN IT OFF. The latching relay stays energized until I hit a (momentary) stop button at one of a half dozed manual control stations located around my shop or my high dust alarm/auto shut off breaks the latching circuit. That way I only need a single sensor instead of multiple sensors or transmitters to start the DC.

I debated whether to use a delay-on-break relay setup, but then agonized over how long to make the delay- some times I jump from jointer to tablesaw in a few seconds, at other times it may take me a couple of minutes to go from one machine to another.

Unless it is located in the shop and noisy (mine is neither), there is little reason to shut the DC off between WW machine operations and at least three reasons to leave it running- (1) it eliminates any issue with high cycle rates. (2) if your DC is off and you start and use a machine immediately generating dust, the DC may not be up to full RPM (air velocity not at max) when the dust reaches the cyclone, if you use one- separation might suffer and allow dust to pass into the filter, if you have one. (3) as long as your gates close with machine use, you stop air flow when a machine is not running and therefore significantly limit the amount of warm air being expelled from or cold (or hot/humid) outside being drawn into your shop if you discharge outside (my discharge is selectable but I usually bypass the filters and discharge outside.)

Three wire DC control circuit: (the momentary output from a current sensor on the transformer that powers my autogate solenoids is connected as an "additional start")



Manual DC control station with momentary N.O.- START, and momentary N.C. STOP buttons:





Transformer that powers autogate solenoids (current sensor circuit that turns DC on is located inside the cover):



Autogate Production Line- adding pneumatic cylinders to new and old gates:



Autogate "open" indicator and manual control button (parallels machine current sensor switch):



Current sensor switch located adjacent to receptacle used by one machine:



Prototype autogate:



Installed autogate (all behind the walls or below the floor. A very old gate was used for this one):



A "newer" gate converted to an autogate:

[Charles Joy]

Hi Alan

Your autogates were my initial inspiration for starting down this path. So first off I'd like to say thanks for sharing your knowledge. It's been a huge help.

My gates are hooked to the 120 or 240 v at each individual tool. So when the motor gets power it is also sent to a fused inlet mounted on the pneumatic solenoid box mounted to the blast gate. Right now I'm thinking of converting the 120 or 240 volts to 24 volts at the solenoid box and then to the contactor on the cyclone with a delay on make and a delay on break adjustment. How to wire all the 24 volt lines from each solenoid box together and then to the delay relays and on to the cyclone, is what I'm trying to figure out.

001.jpg003.jpg004.jpg005.jpg

[Alan Schaffter]

Gotcha.

It really is cheaper doing it your way- doesn't require current sensors, etc. but I really didn't want to mess running 120/220V lines everywhere or connect another cord to each machine, plus, I had access to the back of the (knee) walls and garage ceiling below for my 24v circuits.

Since you obviously have air lines running to each gate, the cheapest option for you might be to add small magnetic reed switches (cost a few cents) and magnets to each gate and run a low voltage circuit (three wire or two wire) to a contactor with low voltage coil. Or, thinking out of the box, add a pressure sensing switch to the air line to sense any pressure drop due to gate activation to start the DC. That could get a bit complicated, however, if you have dual acting cylinders, because you would also see a pressure drop during both opening and closing.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Actually I think I would turn your idea sideways.

Using the power from each tool to send a signal to the DC controller box would be 'dangerous'. There would be a myriad of problems trying to send the power from the tool to the DC and perform the 'or' operation using line voltages.

Alan has provided some other options, but to accomplish something similar to what I think you are asking; this might be the most direct route.

Wire a 120 or 240 VAC relay into each gate.

Install a 24VDC power supply at the DC and a 24VDC driven timing relay

Connect as follows:
1) +24VDC to one normally open relay contact at each tool
2) Other contact (call it 'sense') to + side of timing relay
3) Connect timing relay - to power supply -

I will try a picture:

+24VDC -----[]-----()----- -24VDC

Don't forget to a flyback diode across the timing relay coil or use a timing relay that has one internally.

[Charles Joy]

Thanks for the info Anthony.

As it now sits each blast gate has 120 or 240 VAC(depending on the voltage of the tool) in the solenoid enclosure when the tool is turned on. I didn't want to run high voltage wiring from each gate back to the dust collector. I thought using a small transformer in each box so I would have 24 volts coming out of each box tied into a circuit that controls the contactor of the dust collector. But as I had mentioned control circuits aren't something I'm very familiar with. Please let me know your thoughts.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Funny thing is controls is what I do.

Either you mentioned it or I thought of using a transformer and running 24VAC back to the controller. But the problem would arise if you started two tools at the same time. Directly 'OR'ing two 24VAC signals from two different lines can be problematic and cause issues. It would be great to just tie all the 24VAC hot lines together and all the neutral lines together and fire the timing relay but unfortunately that won't work.

The easiest most direct way to generate the OR signal is to install relays. The coil driven by the tool and the contacts connected to the timing relay.

I suppose you could add the 24VAC transformer to each machine and then connect each pair to a 24VAC relay in the DC cabinet. But I think that is just adding another step, more parts, and more expense. There are 120VAC coil relays readily available that could be added to each tool, 240VAC are available but may take a little more looking. Based on a quick price survey, transformer vs relay, about same price.

So far I will stick with my original proposal, except I would add a fuse to the output of the power supply. The design also has the advantage of being easy to expand by a new tool, add another relay, and connect relay contacts in parallel with the previous relays.

[Charles Joy]

Anthony I had hoped to avoid running a bunch of wires back to the DC or control panel.

So after stewing on this for a while I think my best way forward is to put current sensors in the main service panel. Here's the article from FWW a while back. http://valentick.narod.ru/dust_detector.pdf

Would this setup work for a 5Hp cyclone with a magnetic contactor and how would I wire multiple sensors in the service panel? Thanks

[Ken Grant]

could you find a current sensor large enough to run all your wires through it?

[Chris Parks]

I don't know about the technical side of control but I have seen this system and it works.

http://mastslav.weebly.com

[Alan Schaffter]

I think their attempt to make a connection between the venturi diagram and the operation of a cyclone is all wet!