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Thread: Back bevel vs high angle frog vs bevel up plane with blade at 40 degree?

  1. #1
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    Back bevel vs high angle frog vs bevel up plane with blade at 40 degree?

    Ok creakers, I have another question. I saw a post a long time ago that I can't find any more and was wondering if I could get some discusion around this topic. Does a blade in a standard angle plane with a bevel sharpened at 30 degrees with a back bevel at 10 degrees work the same as a high angle frog (at 55 degrees)? Which brings up the next part of the questions, how does this stack up against a low angle (LA) plane with a blade that has a bevel at 43 degrees?

    Here's the reason I'm asking. I have LN planes (#4, #5, #7) that I use all the time, and for 99.9% of the time they work great. So it's hard for me to justify buying a dedicated HA plane for less then 1% of the work that I do. I do have an extra blade that will fit my LN #4 and #5 that I could put a back bevel on or I could spend the extra money on a LA Jack plane with two blades, one at a low angle and one high. Still a bit of a dedicated plane that isn't going to get that much use out of it, but at least it will have more than one function (easier to justify).

    So are there any benifits of one over the other (besides cost)? I have never used a bevel up plane, but have heard good things about them, just not sure what I would use another jack plane for accept difficault grain.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Hi Sean

    There are a million ways to do things. Something for everyone. However, before you go off and buy something new, just try something new with something you already have.

    You can control tearout in interlocked grain with a high cutting angle, and his can come via a BD plane with a high bed, or a backbevel on a blade on a BD plane with a lower (e.g. common) bed angle, or a BU plane with a high blade angle. All should cut the same way.

    But you should first try setting the plane with a closed up chipbreaker. This, too, can alter the chip formation and thereby effectively control tearout. And you already have the planes to use.

    David Weaver wrote an excellent article here on how-to: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/r...cles_935.shtml

    If you do not get on with this method (which does have a learning curve), and do not wish to spend on a BU plane of a BD plane with a high angle bed, then a 10 degree backbevel on a second blade will certainly offer the same cutting action as a dedicated 55 degree smoother.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 11-25-2014 at 1:23 AM.

  3. #3
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    Sean,

    It seems I missed an earlier opportunity to say Welcome to the Creek. So, here is a belated welcome to the Creek.

    +1 on Derek's suggestion.

    Take the extra blade and put a back bevel on it and see what happens.

    Also give the chip breaker adjustment a try.

    A low angle jack plane also makes a great plane for shooting end grain. That can be handy for everything from cutting boards to dovetails. So if you really want to buy a new plane, there is a little more justification.

    From all of the posts here my feeling is people generally find something to work in their situation. It may be completely different than what works in my shop with sticky western pine than someone else's working mahogany, oak or jara.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 11-25-2014 at 2:36 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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  4. #4
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    Sean,

    From what you have described I think the best approach would be to use the blade you have and set a back bevel on it to get the result you are looking for. I have a blade I use in my number six when I run into running grain or just tough inconsistent grain. I like how it works. You can always buy the low angle plane if you think that is what you want. The back bevel will work. Most of the bevel up planes are expensive and if it doesn't work for you you are out a few bucks. It is worth a try. Good luck.

    Chuck

  5. #5
    I have used the back bevel technique for many years with great success.

    However 10 degrees is a rather modest change.

    I used 15 degrees for UK domestic hardwoods such as ripple ash and 25 degrees for the most intransigent, interlocked, exotic hardwoods.

    BTW the back bevel does not need to be wide, 1/32" will do and the shavings must be fine.

    Best wishes,
    David

  6. #6
    When I researced this topic I found that a combination of a high cutting angle and low clearance angle promotes quicker wear at the underside of the blade. A blade with a 60 degree cutting angle and 15 degree clearance angle wears twice as fast as another with 30 degrees of clearance angle. The wear characteristics of a blade with a 45 degree cutting angle and the chipbreaker very close to the edge were even a little better. More important, the force to push the plane and the force which pulls the edge into the wood were all quite a bit more favorable for the case where you use the chipbreaker to prevent tearout.

    If this is important for you, only you can decide. But you can view the article here: http://planetuning.infillplane.com/h...pbreakers.html

    Personally I don't like the maintenance for backbevels. You really need a jig when the exact angles become so important. In this case you need the jig twice, which is twice as annoying.

  7. #7
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    Everyone, thank you for your replies. I do use the chip breaker setup suggested, but like I stated this setup work 99.9% of the time, making it hard to justify a new dedicated plane. After reading all the suggestions posted here, I think I'll take my extra blade and put that back bevel on and try a few different angles on the back. It may wear down the blade more, but it's not something I do very often so I think it will work best for me. Again, thanks everyone.

  8. #8
    If the cap iron is not working for you in some cases, try a back beveled iron first before buying a high angle plane. Well, or you can just buy a high angle plane (I give the advice to try something, but I've always just bought or made something else instead).

    From time to time, you do come across a piece of wood that just isn't suitable for planing. Not very often once you get a sense of what you like to work with, but every once in a while - most notably the woods that have a hard early wood and a really soft late wood. Wilbur pan sent me a stick of stuff one time that had something in the early wood that looked like popcorn. I have no idea what it was. HE also had a piece of makore that I could just barely plane with a 55 degree infill, and planing it to a better surface finish would've required resharpening the plane for the last few passes, which seems torturous (ron brese later planed it without problem with a freshly sharpened plane, but anything less and it tore out spectacularly because the early wood had no ability to resist force - it just crumbled).

    Anyway, try the back bevel as david and derek and others described. In my experience it works fine, it just makes the plane difficult to push. But objective number one is to get a good surface and avoid overshooting marks.

    The fun in arguing about all of this stuff is that all of the different methods will get you from A to B one way or another.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 11-25-2014 at 8:12 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post

    David Weaver wrote an excellent article here on how-to: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/r...cles_935.shtml

    If you do not get on with this method (which does have a learning curve), and do not wish to spend on a BU plane of a BD plane with a high angle bed, then a 10 degree backbevel on a second blade will certainly offer the same cutting action as a dedicated 55 degree smoother.

    Derek
    +1 on David's article and on the use of back bevels.

    On the topic of back bevels from the perspective of a novice who has gone through the same sort of process of searching for answers that work for me. . . I was really surprised at how well adding a back bevel to a standard BD plane works. I was also surpised at how much more force it takes to push the plane against a slightly higher angle of attack. My suggestion: start out with a back bevel of, say, 5 degrees first. See if that works for you. If so, stick with it. If it improves the results but there's still more progress to make, then step up to about 10 degrees.
    Michael Ray Smith

  10. #10
    Kees,

    I would dispute that the Eclipse type jig is annoying. I see it as an easy to use friend! I've had mine for 44 years and it is lighter, and slightly smaller than some of the modern copies

    David

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post
    Kees,

    I would dispute that the Eclipse type jig is annoying. I see it as an easy to use friend! I've had mine for 44 years and it is lighter, and slightly smaller than some of the modern copies

    David
    It's my favorite of jigs, too (though I don't use them any longer). Everything else was cumbersome and added more time to the process. Any time I'm at the stones, my head already wants to be back to whatever I was doing, not fiddling. The eclipse at least keeps you connected enough to what's going on since you have to "steer" it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post
    Kees,

    I would dispute that the Eclipse type jig is annoying. I see it as an easy to use friend! I've had mine for 44 years and it is lighter, and slightly smaller than some of the modern copies

    David
    Tastes differ. It's not about the jig itself, it is about using it which annoys me (Me, as in my opinion). But as jigs go, its certainly the not the worst, as far as I know them.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Ray Smith View Post
    . . I was really surprised at how well adding a back bevel to a standard BD plane works. I was also surpised at how much more force it takes to push ...
    Hi Michael

    A scribble of candle wax on the sole of the plane will leave you smiling.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  14. #14
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    twice as annoying

    First a question : Do you have a specific wood and or project in mind to be worked on or that is not planing well? The reason I ask is if it is a small project or projects any of the tools you have that you mentioned can be made to work. If it is a large project or has features that could be done easier with the bevel up then maybe get a new plane. BU not the frog. Even though I have been intellectually straightened out on the finesse of the chip breaker I still have an irrational addiction to the bevel up which at times over powers my oh I don't know what.

    The feature that allows the BU throat to be quickly and easily opened up for deep cuts and closed up some for the next operation is an example.

    The back bevel will most certainly fix your problem. It totally worked for me. Have i ever mentioned how much I hate back beveling a stack of blades ? In the words of The Grinch : Hate, hate, hate . . . Hate, hate, hate . . . LOATH . . .
    Last edited by Winton Applegate; 11-27-2014 at 3:51 PM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  15. #15
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    Bandoleer of blades (don't need no stinking badges)

    planing it to a better surface finish would've required resharpening the plane for the last few passes, which seems torturous
    Stack of blades (and for the full quick loading pleasure experience ((( a bbbbbb BU )))) to rescue one from the torture chamber. No hesitation, nothing to come between one and perfection. Lock and load.

    Just having fun.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

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