Value of saws

[Mel Miller]

A cold unheated shop is not in the least bit, in any way, worthless. I totally disagree with your claim that it is, and in fact with an appraiser I could easily provide evidence that it is in fact worth something. You see the sun will soon be heating it naturally, in just a few months, and then all the money I spent heating it will in fact be as you say, worthless. As a matter of fact, I do have heat in my shop; I simply choose not to use it because it is a waste of money. I can have just as much fun sitting in my recliner in the house that is heated anyway so the dogs are comfortable and polish the nickle fount for a 228D Coleman lantern as I can spending $10 a day to heat my shop.

What I meant was "a cold unheated shop is worthless" as a shop. In your part of the country especially, it makes a shop unusable a lot of the year. Many of us get a lot of our yearly projects done out in the shop during the cold weather. Shop heat makes this possible. Or, you can just sit inside and vegetate to save a little money.

[Judson Green]

This Santa's little helper sure likes a warm shop

I know in climates like ours (I'm in Wisconsin) winter can last a looooong time, but I also know heating/insulation can be rather expensive.

[george wilson]

When I was a teenager,I had only an unheated garage to work in. Not the most convenient! Winter is the only time around here when it gets dry enough to build guitars.

I'd be concerned about condensation.

[Harold Burrell]

My shop is unheated. You would be surprised, however, to find out just how much I get done out there in the winter. Even in temps like 10F. You get used to it.

And you learn to work fast...

[John Crawford]

There is a need out there for a lot of the novice users to get a clean sharp straight quality saw for a decent price. The market for saws online vs in person is vastly different.

As a novice I agree with this one. I do buy Disstons for $3 to $5 and clean them up, but I'm not brilliant at it (especially with crosscut), and it is messy work. I feel like these aren't really aren't something that I want to buy on ebay, as I never know what someone means by "straight" blade. And from trustworthy, more boutique places, the prices + shipping are high enough that I just don't buy them, compared to the same filthy saw that I buy for $3 (though I'm sure the well restored ones are fine saws). If I ran into you at a market and you had a nice straight, clean, well sharpened D7 for $30, that would be tempting....

Something to think about for your marketing purposes: I would be more tempted to buy from a trustworthy individual person like yourself, especially if I was convinced they knew how to sharpen saws. If I see a pretty Disston in an antique store for $30, I would leave it there, since I can make it pretty but am not as good about tuning it up.

[Tom Stenzel]

When I bought a house back in the ‘80‘s, I had a somewhat motley collection of tools to store in the garage. With the idea I was doing good, I coated my tools with oil to protect them. The oil used was what I had on hand, whatever brand of new clean 10w40 I was running at the time in my car. Imagine my surprise in the spring when I found many of my tools rusted- right under the layer of oil I’d put on to protect them.

A few years later I read an article written by the owner of a small oil refinery. It was about the lubrication needs 2 stroke engines but in one of the article’s asides, the author mentioned that the additives in 4 stroke engine oil were hygroscopic and could create corrosion. The advise, of course, was that engine oils were wonderful things- when used in engines where heat would drive out moisture.

Of course I remembered my rusty tool disaster. That was with new clean engine oil, can’t imagine how badly used oil would have turned out. Since then I have used non-detergent oil, the inexpensive 30 weight found at Meijers and Walmart, and it’s worked OK on my wrenches and automotive tools.

I’m a bit queasy with using lubricant oils on wood saws though. If it got on the wood you’re cutting, wouldn’t that screw up any finish you planned to use?

-Tom

[Michael Ray Smith]

I knew that complaining would ensue about used motor oil. It is hard for me to differentiate between imagined concerns and actual concerns. I am going with the conclusion that the concern with using used motor oil is simply imagined and of no consequence.

Combustion gases, including carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and nitrogen oxides, are acidic. Engine oil absorbs those gases. It is formulated to neutralize some amount of acid, but if used long enough, all engine oil will become acidic. That's neither imagined nor inconsequential. The steel used to make saws corrodes in acidic environments. That's neither imagined nor inconsequential either. Maybe the used oil you have was removed from the engine before its capacity to neutralize acid was exceeded, or maybe it wasn't. If you want to roll the dice on that (and other factors), have at it. They're your saws. But it's not a wise move to disregard advice from George Wilson without a very good reason. His advice is based on experience and knowledge, not imagination. And he doesn't waste his time with inconsequential questions.

[george wilson]

Last night I was tired,and completely forgot to mention that only non detergent oils should be used in any case. I only ever use non detergent oil in my lathes and milling machines.

Tom above,jogged my memory on that.

Thank you for the vote of confidence,Michael.

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

I was hesitant to get in on this, but have never been strong on good judgment, so here goes. I am a chemist at a major chemical company, and have spent more than a couple of decades working with solvents and with fuels on an off, as our plant makes both specialty fuels and solvents. I have developed some solvents, and have advised production on fuels from time to time, although not often. I am considered one of the company experts on such.

Most refinery stream that are heavy enough to be good for lubricating oils in internal combustion engines are going to be extremely rich in such things as as aromatics and polycyclic aromatics. These are regarded as carcinogens. This will not change whether the oil is new or used. Only an extremely limited type of refinery streams will be low in these aromatics, and even the best will not be void in them.

I have tested a number of such low aromatic solvents from all over the world and from several of the companies that make such, and none are completely void of such. There is only a very limited number of companies that make such. The best of the lower boiling of such are EXTREMELY low in such, but the concentrations get higher as the molecular weight increases. I believe this is virtually always going to be the case. By the time you get to things as heavy as lube oils my experience has shown that the concentration of the aromatics is significant, and I am talking about streams that specifically made to be low aromatics. Ordinary refinery streams are going to be much richer than these very high quality streams.

The comment on motor oils containing hydroscopic additives is correct, in my view. These have to specifically suspend water, etc., so that they can get hot enough in the engine to be eliminated by the hot engine, rather than settle out where it can cause trouble.

The comment about the residues of combustion, which are collected by the used oil, being corrosive, is correct in my view. The situation now is better than it used to be, because modern fuels are extremely low in sulfur compounds, compared to the situation up to the late 80s and early 90s. The hydrocarbons containing a sulfur atom burn to give much stronger acids than those without them. Consequently spent motor oils should now be less acidic than was the case years ago, but none the less I would not use them because they are still going to be somewhat corrosive.

Because of the acids in used motor oils, and the additives in new motor oil, I would not use either to coat any tool.

The big danger with the carcinogens in these materials is either breathing them or ingesting them. The motor oils are such high boiling materials that you are not going to breathe them. If you keep them out of your mouth by washing them off with soap and water relatively soon after handling them you should be OK. You can absorb some dangerous things through your skin, but I think this danger to be minimal with used oils, especially again if you wash them off after use, but even without washing, I think the danger of absorbing them through the skin is minimal.

If using oil for corrosion protection I would stick to those made for such protection, such as WD-40 and similar products. That said, I have also used petroleum jelly, which is specifically treated to remove corrosive and toxic compounds.

regards,

Stew

[george wilson]

What about
WD 40 leaving bad residues on metal,that are very difficult to get rid of? I never use the stuff because of this problem,which seems to be well known. At least,I'd never leave it on the precision ground surfaces of my lathes and milling machines.

I am actually surprised,you being a chemist, that you would recommend its use for coating saws,or any other ferrous surfaces.

I continue to advise the use of mineral oil since the Starrett Co.'s instrument oil is mineral oil.

With arthritis becoming a problem as I get older,I prefer to not get anything risky on my hands.

[Stew Denton]

Hi George,

I greatly respect your opinion.

I have never experienced WD-40 leaving a hard to remove residue, but I don't have lathes and milling machines and do not have experience with such. Even though I have not experienced such, that does not mean that it does not happen, and as mentioned above greatly respect your opinion so am inclined to believe you. This observation is a major surprise to me though.

WD-40 likely does have very high boiling materials present which might be left on precision ground metal surfaces. These could include n-paraffins, which are not very soluble in most hydrocarbon solvents, and as such would be hard to remove. I would expect such. As most of the oils slowly evaporate over time, some of these will remain. They are not corrosive, and would serve to protect the steel from corrosion, but could be hard to remove.

Solvents such as toluene or xylenes will dissolve such residues as well as anything, but I am not keen on using such solvents because of the hazards of breathing such.


I do agree with your comment on high grade mineral oil. Some, such as likely the brand you mention above, are highly treated, such as is high grade petroleum jelly, to remove the corrosive and toxic compounds. I would agree that such is an extremely good choice for corrosion resistance, maybe even the best choice, and has few, if any, downsides.

I certainly agree that used motor oil is a lousy choice.

Your comment is appreciated.

Stew

[Mel Miller]

I seldom use WD 40. If you leave it on something until it dries, it leaves a film that's hard to remove. I like Kroil to help loosen rusty things, and Tri-Flow for a light oil.

[george wilson]

Stew,there have been many posts on "The Practical Machinist's Forum" about the hard to remove residue that WD 40 leaves on surfaces. Most of the members there are professional machinists.

I heeded these comments long ago, and have refrained from using WD 40 on my equipment. So,I can only relate that numerous stories about WD from the experience of others. I'm a stickler for keeping my equipment in as new a condition as I can. So,I'm careful when I hear such comments about products.

Thank you for the positive comments. I'd recommend getting pharmaceutical grade mineral oil if someone wants to use it,and doesn't want to bother ordering Starrett oil. I've been using Starrett instrument oil for quite a few years by now,with no bad results on surfaces.

Looks like Mel has had some experience with WD 40.

[David Weaver]

As a novice I agree with this one. I do buy Disstons for $3 to $5 and clean them up, but I'm not brilliant at it (especially with crosscut), and it is messy work. I feel like these aren't really aren't something that I want to buy on ebay, as I never know what someone means by "straight" blade. And from trustworthy, more boutique places, the prices + shipping are high enough that I just don't buy them, compared to the same filthy saw that I buy for $3 (though I'm sure the well restored ones are fine saws). If I ran into you at a market and you had a nice straight, clean, well sharpened D7 for $30, that would be tempting....

Something to think about for your marketing purposes: I would be more tempted to buy from a trustworthy individual person like yourself, especially if I was convinced they knew how to sharpen saws. If I see a pretty Disston in an antique store for $30, I would leave it there, since I can make it pretty but am not as good about tuning it up.

Eventually, I'll dump mine here. I don't plan to "restore" them or anything, and most of the saws I've gotten I have paid market price for. The critical thing to me, that I would like to have known when I first bought saws, was whether or not the saw was cutting true. A new user who knows the saw is cutting true in the hand of someone else knows they're the problem.

I just wasn't, when I was a beginner, willing to pay several hundred dollars for a saw that was not much different than a $40 good shape full plate D-8, and it didn't take too long to figure out that a saw with teeth at an even height with no snaggle-setted teeth cut reasonably well. And it didn't take long to learn to hammer saws straight, either - for saws with a gradual bow that's more of an equipment issue than it is a skill issue.

[Mel Fulks]

This Mel,too. Had to use paint remover once to get dried WD 40 off some seldom used hand saws.