Contributor
Hah, that is a good point. How often do you see doweled joints compared to M&T in a manner in which the joint is stressed to failure and a conclusion drawn that they are identical in quality for these reason. I guess it is just too impractical for a magazine to find historic examples of joinery which have remained intact after years upon years of practical use.Originally Posted by David Weaver
Dave, Gorgeous work!
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
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There are definitely a few small places making high quality tools for the woods (john neeman and autine tools - a spin off of john neeman by a guy who refers to himself as john, though that's just a trade name similar to the way japanese makers give themselves another when they go pro). I saw a video last week on a channel called "wranglerstar", which appears to be a guy who is in my opinion similar to what many of our amateur tool bloggers are (as in the purpose of the use of tools appears to be to try to generate publicity or income, the video isn't incidental to an otherwise highly skilled user). He had an axe from john neeman that had a handle that had shrunk. It was a beautifully made axe and all of the commenters were railing about how it should be sent back to the maker because he should handle something like that because of the price (it was about a $275 axe or something). Many of them were going on at length about how the handle was made improperly and the maker didn't fit it right when it likely only dried and shrunk. Only a couple of commenters said "refit the handle, if you can't do that, you really can't use an axe that nice, anyway". Really ridiculous - shipping an axe that costs a few hundred bucks all the way back to latvia to get a handle refitted.
That's the other issue. You'd have every beginner in the world sending hand forged chisels back talking about how they didn't like the way the handles felt or how they didn't hold an edge as long as they expected. Can you imagine setting up dies to make chisels and then adding a bolster (be it by weld or by solder or something) and having people sending them back when there's nothing wrong with them?
I was at a brooks brothers outlet this weekend and had to wait in line because some guy in front of me couldn't fathom that his coat that was not made in the third world couldn't just be exchanged at any time on his terms. that's not the kind of place I normally shop, but I understand their policies and after I bought a sport jacket there, my wife said "if you find another one cheaper somewhere else, you can just return this one". OK....that's a good way to get them to decide to make stuff in the third world, because people think that it doesn't cost anyone to return things that have a great cost to make.
Anyway, all of that adds up to why nobody would have much desire to make something for the beginners market if it isn't something that could be made in long runs and the customer service cost absorbed.
Contributor
Well, just to reiterate my position vis-a-vis modern steel and antique steel (let's say before 1850):
1. Our ancestors did not have the chemistry to know what trace elements were going into their steel, or even controlling the amount of carbon in it beyond relatively wide limits. They didn't even know it was carbon that allowed the steel to harden.
2. They could not make good steel consistently, although they could recognize good steel after they had made it.
3. Over the past 150 years, we've gained a pretty good knowledge of the chemistry of steel, the hardening process, and the micro structure of the steel. This knowledge has been used to tailor steel to specific uses, including woodworking (chisels, plane blades, power saws, etc.)
4. Essentially all users of steel have moved to modern steels for the advantages the modern steel has.
5. It would be sad indeed if we had not made significant improvements in steel for specific uses over that period of time.
6. Just because something is old, it does not mean that it is better, or that our ancestors had some magic that has been lost to modern time.
None of this is to imply that antique steel cannot be used in woodworking. It's obvious that our ancestors used that steel and produced some outstanding furniture. You simply have to know the characteristics and limitations of the steel and work within that performance envelope. The same is true for modern steel. It's just that the performance envelope of modern steel might be larger than the performance envelope of antique steel.
Mike
[A good example of improvements in steel is the razor. A modern razor can be used many, many times and still give a very close, comfortable shave, with no maintenance except washing the crud off the blades. Compare that to the old Gillette "Blue Blades" (for those old enough to remember them), or a straight razor. With a Blue Blade, you were lucky to get two shaves before it was too uncomfortable to use (felt like it was pulling the hair out). And straight razors are honed before every use.]
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 12-01-2014 at 10:06 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
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I think it's likely that we have moved from blade steels to diemaking steels because there isn't much of a market for blade steels, and because the users have gone from mainly professional users (who often prefer a simpler steel, across blade steel uses like shaving, chef/butcher work and woodworking) to an amateur market that values things like time between sharpening and rust resistance. That's due more to incompetence in sharpening and infrequent use.
And because it takes far less skill to make tools with steels that have been optimized for stable hardening than it does to make tools with water hardening steel (though there is obviously some skill left to tolerate water hardening steel in asia and parts of eastern europe).
I have no idea what would be popular if the market were a professional market instead of an amateur market. But it should be noted that high speed steels (even HSS like T series HSS that makes a good blade steel) have been available for a very very long time and the professional market did not make use of them in tools. The hobbyist market drove that.
I don't think it's the age of the plain forged steel that makes them more favorable to me, its their characteristics. Those characteristics are generally available in white steel #2 tools from japan, better characteristics actually (you get a little more hardness, but still get good sharpenability and toughness), but there are not tools available in white #2.
Last edited by David Weaver; 12-01-2014 at 9:28 PM.
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It occurs to me that to get a chisel of the style warren mentioned, we'd probably have to look to a carving tool maker. I don't know if anyone makes a bolster like the one on the old chisels, though auriou makes a decent approximation of it on carving tools, as do other carving tool makers probably.
I wonder if auriou could be convinced to make some chisels for about the same price as their carving tools.
[OP]
Member
Thanks for the positive comments gentlemen: It feels good to revive some of the old ones and see how they perform.
Dave B
Member
Of course chemistry has improved, but your arguments are very weak. Unless the steel maker and the tool maker have a vision of what qualities they want a chisel to have, they are bound to fall short. Was Jackson Pollock's paint better than Jan Vermeer's? I suspect Pollock was not as demanding. I think Stradivari would have been frustrated by today's varnish offerings. Are you going to trumpet the superiority of Wonder bread because of the great knowledge of its chemists, it fine quality control?
It would be sad indeed if we had not made significant improvements in steel for specific uses over that period of time. Yes is is sad. We have actually gone backwards. We are not praising 180 year old tools out of nostalgia, we praise them because they are better. The dumbing down, no-amateur-left-behind concept is strong in the hand tool world. Lee Valley might have fine technicians, but until they can understand how a double iron plane works their offerings will fall far short of the Carruthers planes of 1767.
It does not sound as if you have actual experience with straight razors.
Dave B, nice job on the handle. Lie Nielsen's chisel video shows a tang chisel with a horrible tang, then talks about how difficult it is to replace the handle on a tang chisel if the handle is damaged. Not sure how handles become damaged, but you did not seem to have any trouble with replacement. Last year I bought a really nice skew chisel circa 1820 for turning at an auction for $8. There was an 1/8 chisel of similar vintage there also, but I let it go to a fellow cabinetmaker for $35.
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I agree with warren's comments about razors. DE blades and straight razors are not remotely similar. You dry a straight razor after shaving and corrosion is minimal. A single carbon steel straight razor in the hands of an experienced user could literally shave anyone for an entire lifetime. There are more complex steels in razors, even old ones, but they are not an improvement over a simple carbon steel - they are actually a bit more cumbersome to hone, and they don't stay sharp any longer unless they exist in an environment where it's inevitable that they will see a lot of condensation.
A double edge blade is coated, it's not steel that makes them better than a gillette blue DE blade, it is the coating....at least on a throw-away basis. However, a straight razor shaver could hone a DE blue blade and probably get hundreds of shaves out of one before throwing it away - few knew how to do that, though, and at 12 cents per blade for a russian stainless coated blade, I'd throw them away on a weekly basis, too.
That said, a straight razor is rarely honed. Honing is metal removal with abrasive. Straight razors are stropped for each shave. They see a flax linen strop on a regular but less frequent basis, and they see honing very very infrequently in any razor user with any experience. Once every 6 months is plenty, and at that, on a stone slower than the stones commonly used as finish stones in woodworking.
The finest razors to use are carbon steel. They include the super extra hollow ground german razors of the early 1900s, the japanese razors of the 1960s and the spanish razors (filarmonicas) made early on. Henckels made a novelty 440C "friodur" razor that was cryogenically treated probably in the 1960s at the latest (just in case someone thought that was only a recent thing), but it is not better to use than a carbon steel razor, even with modern abrasives. It just resists corrosion, but does so at the expense of having to be a little bit softer than a carbon steel razor to preserve sharpenability. (there are good american carbon steel razors, too, but in my opinion they do not quite match the quality of the ones I mentioned).
I guess I could make a general statement and convince most people that shaving equipment is better now by comparing a feather high stainless blade to an old gillette blue, but it's not a very accurate statement though it does parallel selling materials to beginners. Carbon steel is king in straight razors, regardless.
Member
The Anderson Blacksmith Shop in Williamsburg has made wrought iron chisels with welded in steel bits for the cabinet maker's shop. They had to experiment around to figure out how to forge the bolsters at first,but worked it out.
I'll have to ask them how well they like the repro chisels. I know the blacksmiths like to use 1070 or 1080 tool steel since it welds more easily than 1095 without burning up at welding temperatures. That troubles me,though I know David Bartlet likes 1085.
I do not know if they are the equal of originals or not. I don't know if the cabinet makers have used real 18th.C. chisels or not. I have a few originals (18th. C. carving tools).
This may sound sacrilegious,but though
I have some 19th. C. Butcher chisels, my old 1965 Marples chisels have still been my go to chisels. My old 1950's Bergs are too soft. I don't know why they have such a good reputation,but they do. Maybe I am just too habitual. But the Marples get the job done,though I certainly would not recommend the new ones. Sadly,I have not yet made handles for my Pfiel chisels. They came with atrocious handles,and though I've made sone boxwood London pattern octagonal handles for them,I just don't like how they feel. I have gotten way too hung up trying to come up with a suitable handle design for them. I should probably just settle on the standard 1950's Marples(and others') round,bulged boxwood handle shape,which feels nice in my hands. I'm sure the Pfiels will be fine,as they are my favorite carving tools,and I have a large collection of antiques. My Bartons are especially nice,though they are cranked gouges for pattern making,and I don't use them much.
I'm probably getting into trouble writing this post,but all the work I've posted was made with the old Marples.
Anyway,back to the blacksmith made chisels, I'd have to say that they probably would just rather make other things. There is a lot of work in a chisel since it must be accurately ground all over. Most blacksmith things can be hammered out and thrown down. Making a chisel is a much more costly process and probably no one would pay the price that the labor would command these days. And we just don't have the deftness of the old workers who did it all their lives,and worked for starvation wages.
Last edited by george wilson; 12-02-2014 at 9:58 AM.
Contributor
Well, let's talk about quality. What is Quality? Quality is what the customer says it is.
When engineers and scientists work to improve any product, they have measurable characteristics of the product that they are working to improve. For chisels, I imagine the primary characteristics are "Get sharp" and "Stay sharp". You can find modern chisels which excel in both of those characteristics.
And, yes, I see modern razors as an example of significant improvements in not only steel, but in ergonomics. I can use a modern razor for a long time and it is easy and comfortable to use. To me, that's a very good example of an improved product, including vast improvements in the steel - a real quality product.
You may have other characteristics that make a quality product for your and that's okay. You should choose a product that best meets your particular needs.
If you like to use chisels with antique steel, God bless you.
Mike
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 12-02-2014 at 2:26 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
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Warren, I WILL trumpet the superiority of modern steels.I leave Chinese steel out!!! I have about 350 antique carving tools and chisels,and I know from experience that they are not all the same consistency. Not even Addis,of which I have about 75.Actually,about 15 more.
One 12 piece set was so hard I could not get them to take a decent edge. I had to heat them up to purple to use them. Some have been too soft.
These days we know a great deal more than they did even in the early 20th. C. about chemistry of steels. We have much tighter controls over quality.
The big question is: Do modern chisel makers use decent steels that cost money? Many do not. Some,like Sears at least USED to use were made in Holland from .050% carbon,which is at the threshold of being able to harden. And it has very poor wear resistance when hardened. This was shown many years ago in a Fine Woodworking test of chisels. The Japanese kept coming out the best.
I haven't used the PM VII chisels that LV sells,but I have a plane blade of it,and really like it a lot. I think you're going to get what you pay for. That was true in the old days also. But what was also true is that testing in the old days consisted of relying on the experience of choice workmen. Like everyone,they could have good days and bad days. They broke open samples of steel,and by the looks of the grain size,sorted them into different categories,like spindle steel(the lowest),to razor steel(the highest). Then,they relied upon the workmen to reliably harden and temper tools.
I know there have been a few complaints about some well known expensive modern chisels here. Related to human error. But back in the old days,even more human judgement was relied upon,starting with making the steel. These days,at least we have better control over that.
On a few occasions,I had to fix good old brands like Witherby chisels,whose welded steel bits came loose. One curled up like a fish hook. Clearly,it was never hardened at all. No one would say Witherby was not a good brand,either. Museum craftsmen were not supposed to use antique tools,but sometimes would buy their own and bring them to work.
Last edited by george wilson; 12-02-2014 at 10:38 AM.
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The razor comparison, again. It takes about a month to learn to use a straight razor reflexively. The cost to use it after that is zero unless you drop it. Shave time is less than five minutes. The missing link is that people were sold convenience (and I don't blame them early on, because life lacked it when gillette managed to get safety razors in GI hands and really get them some exposure). Razors now (or the plastic things with 5 blades) are a joke. They are marked up something like a factor of fifty, and within a couple of months of using a straight razor, they do not provide a shave that matches a straight razor.
A safety razor is also an improvement for body parts (legs, armpits, whatever) and people who do not have a steady enough hand to use a straight razor (as in people with parkinsons, etc). It's not a quality issue, though, it's a marketing and keep everyone dumb issue. why would I sell you a straight razor once or twice in your life if I can get you to spend $4 on a plastic cartridge 12 times a year for the rest of your life?
An experienced user will have no problem with vintage chisels in "get sharp stay sharp". They just get sharp faster. If the average vintage chisel or carving tool doesn't hold an edge for a user, it's a lack of skill issue, and in items that are truly hard to sharpen (incannel gouges, profiled moulding plane blades, etc), there is no contest in which is more practical to use.
Member
Some antique razors were really unusually good. I read a writeup about an inherited straight razor that had been so good,it was borrowed by everyone in a California gold rush camp. The owner decided to sacrifice it to test why it was so good. The test showed that it's steel was cleaner than modern aircraft steel. I think I read the article in Fine Woodworking,but can't recall now.
That was an unusually good razor even in the days when other old razors were in daily use.
Contributor
If you have beard hair like mine you will appreciate a well sharpened straight razor or a good razor in a safety razor. Modern razors are total crap.
Anywho, I do not agree that the customer alone defines quality, the collaboration between maker and customer feedback defines quality. The chisels of yesteryear were not made in a vacuum and more of those of today, but I think a good example of that in today's process is that of japan. A good customer, who is appreciated for their ability will be able to have something created especially for them. I see it all the time in bonsai tools, in fact many makers consider it a badge of honor to present a design developed through collaboration between master smith and user.
The customer feedback in essential to the process, but they are a component, in my opinion.
Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 12-02-2014 at 10:54 AM.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
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Did the blacksmith shop guys have to use hand hammers to laminate tools? That might be part of the reason that they have a preference for a lower carbon easier-to-weld steel.
White and assab steel in japanese tools can be 1.3-1.4 if it's a specialty steel or subclass A white steel #1, and they are forge welded, but under a power hammer. The subclass A white #1 is apparently almost impossible to get right, and few people work with it. the same is true for white #1 in general, you can get it in tools, but getting it done well takes some research and probably some luck (it is a modern process blade steel made from sand iron, but the carbon content is probably the problem because it gives it a narrow range of success in terms of working temperatures).
Lastly, there's something missing from the discussion, and that is the skill that is involved with the smiths who forge steel at low temperatures. It is, as far as I know, the only manual way to actually improve the grain structure of carbon steel and retain it. (I believe it's used with what stu tierney called a "rest period" which is a high temperature (but not critical) soak that might be the same thing as austempering). The best smiths in japan walk a line between not hot enough and hot enough so that when you get their tools, they are hard and tough both because they don't lose any work done by hammering and austempering (or resting).
Warren put the discussion a good way - no amateur left behind. I'll bet when the next thing comes out, we'll hear about how V11 doesn't hold its edge long enough.
If that kind of thing was vitally important, there would be a lot of vintage chisels made out of T1 steel, because it was widely available in the early part of the 1900s, but there was no demand for it in hand tools because users were professionals. It's superior as a blade steel to M2, also.
Last edited by David Weaver; 12-02-2014 at 11:01 AM.
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