Lost in the stones - japanese stones

[Brian Holcombe]

Sorry to start another sharpening related question but I need some practical advice.

my current setup is;

two diamond plates for flattening
800, 1000 and 6000 sun tiger japanese stones. The 800 and 1000 work well, can ask for much more from them.

the 6000 is a stone I sort of put up with, so I would like to replace it.

i'm strongly considering a 3,000 and 10,000 set of Choseras or a couple of sigma stones such as the 13,000 and a rougher stone.

i appreciate any suggestions.

[Steve Friedman]

The 10,000 is an amazing stone, but you may need something finer than a 1,000 to go with it. With the favorable exchange rate, I would get the 3-stone set and sell the 1000 if you don't need it.

I've only used Sigma and Shapton, so can't comment on the Choseras.

Steve

[David Weaver]

naniwa snow white, dump whatever the 6k stone is if you don't like it

If you get the snow white, tools from japan is the place to go because of the favorable exchange rate right now. It's low $80s. If you buy stateside, I believe CKTG wants $140 for the same stone.

It's 95% of what the chosera 10k is, which is a lovely stone itself, but at its price, I would only buy it used and at a significant discount from new.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks fellas! David, I'm going to get the Snow White.

[David Weaver]

Good choice. If you want something finer, put some graded compound on MDF.

The snow white is a really good stone, and fast.

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice, that is exactly what I need.

Loading up on this stuff while the exchange rate is favorable.

[David Wong]

I use both the naniwa 8K snow white, and the sigma 13K. Both are very nice stones with great feeling for sharpening by hand. Both require the surfaces be well wet to perform, otherwise I find they load up easily when sharpening japanese blades. I let water sit on the surface of the stone a couple of minute or so before use. The sigma 13K will definitely create a sharper edge than the snow white for me. An aesthetic downside is that the sigma lessens the contrast between the hard and soft steel layers. I do not strop, so I cannot compare the edge to using green compound. The snow white is a quite aggressive stone, and I sometimes go from a shapton 2K to the Snow White. Though most often I use a hard Aoto before the snow white.

I have an early naniwa snow white that developed crazing cracks over all surfaces shortly after I started using it. I have not heard of crazing occurring on more recent versions of the stone.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks David Wong. I appreciate the insights.

I do not strop either, for plane blades I like a precise bevel so I generally do not do anything to encourage it not to be. I may start stopping for chisels, especially paring chisels for maintainence between sharpening a right in the workshop.

My sharpening station is otherwise known as a kitchen, so I like to keep the sharpening down to once a day. Sometimes hard to do when working with the more brutal woods.

[David Weaver]

For the level of stones we're talking about, stropping is more of an assurance that you've worked to the edge. If you have a smooth leather strop that's oiled, if you didn't and there is any damage to an edge, it will mark the strop.

When I sharpen with oilstones, there is always a wire edge hanging on. A couple of flips back and forth and it stops marking the strop and I know its gone. For japanese natural stones, no such wire edge forms, and the strop is just a check - but the first pull across it usually leaves a dark smooth line with no markings except from the sharp corners of a chisel or iron (this is a strop with a wood backing).

Doing this does make initial sharpness a little better, even with the japanese stones, though. I doubt it makes much difference in actual use like it does with oilstones (that have enough stuff hanging on the edge that leaving it on would probably lead to a damaged edge if you just let work remove it).

you can always add the SP13k later, it's definitely the finest edge you'll get for the price in stones....maybe aside from jasper (and it's equivalent to jasper in fineness, anyway), which has to be used completely differently.

The snow white will make the jump from 1k in almost anything, but the 13k will not. the price of the 13k is also very favorable due to the exchange and will probably stay that way.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks David. That explains why there is practically no mention of strops in anything that explains sharpening japanese tools with waterstones.

The 13k is not so offensively priced like the chosera 10k, so I may pick one up at some point just to appease my curiosity. Don't need it for the moment, as I want to make the leap from 1k to finish stone during most work.

[David Weaver]

the snow white and the chosera 10k is not much different. Cho 10k fits between the two stones we're talking about, and it's a nice stone, but I'm not that convinced by naniwa's claim that it's so expensive to produce. Maybe it is and there's something I don't know about it, but there are plenty of inexpensive magnesia stones, so who knows....

My understanding of the chosera line is that it's popular in knife shops, and knife shops have stuff priced to the moon. In my opinion, it's just a different market segment.

IIRC, the chosera is somewhere around 1.5 microns in particle size (but a very strong cutter), the snow white is half a micron or so more (also a very strong cutter), and the SP 13K is 0.73 microns (gok 20 and shapton 30k are 0.5).

One of the other reasons japanese don't talk about stropping much (which is something they definitely do do with razors is that carbon steel that is as plain as white #2 does not hold a wire edge very well and doesn't really need it as you go higher into hardness. The ability of a bare strop to work an edge also isn't as good once you get past a certain hardness point around 60 or low 60s. With more middle of the road stuff, you can literally get a wire edge off and go from a scraggy edge to a smooth one. If you have scraggy on something 64/65 hardness, it's just going to stay there and not move back and forth much for a strop).

Anyway, the SP 13k leaves a finer edge than the chosera, but it's not as fast as the cho or snow white. They're all good stones, it's "no free lunch" territory, despite the claims by many stone makers (especially some of the house stuff on CKTG) about stones being super fine and super fast relative to others. That's just marketing.

[Brian Holcombe]

Exactly, at 3x or more it makes you wonder.

Makes perfect sense on the stopping part, I remember previously ( another stones thread) that you mentioned the strop to be of little use after a certain level of Polish was obtained with stones. Which makes perfect sense.

After I finally get it together in the way of stones I think I'm going to need to move to straight razors as well.

[Mike Allen1010]

I have the three stones set from Stu (I think the brand is Sigma?) and I have been very pleased with the performance. For me the Atoma abrasive plate is perhaps my most valuable piece of kit.

The only issue for me is with the 13K stone is more prone to "digging in" and gouging the stone surface, particularly when freehand sharpening narrow chisels (which could very well be largely result of my poor technique). My 13K is just about used up and I'm thinking about what would be an appropriate replacement. I would be perfectly happy just getting another of these, but was wondering if there might be another alternative that could provide the same performance (speed and quality of final polished edge) with less risk of gouging?

Based on some comments here in the cave, I was particularly wondering about "spyderco" (sic) stones – I think George may have mentioned them (along with others – Harold?). I really don't know anything about them but just got a general impression they might fit my needs.

I would welcome any advice/suggestions from the stone experts here for that final polishing stone. My primary interest is getting the sharpest edge I can, and I'm less interested in speed.

My shop is in my garage and there's usually a puddle under the sharpening station from all the water I spill with the stones. I don't know how folks working in a wooden floor shop avoid problems with all the water.

I've recently begun using a couple straps (MDF and oiled leather), based largely on David's recommendations. I seem to get a good result with carving tools, particularly when using a really light touch. For plane blades and chisels, I'm not really sure if I am improving or degrading sharpness of the edge with the strops.

All the best, Mike

[David Weaver]

If you're following the 13k with a strop, then there's not really anywhere for the edge to go with chisels or plane irons - the 13k is near maxed-out territory.

Green chrome strop is a good thing to use to follow something that leaves a wire edge or that leaves an edge a little bit coarse (and good for carving tools in general to step them up a notch).

The spyderco is an entirely different animal from a waterstone, but one that I think is worth trying if you want something that you can really dig in to. It doesn't cut nearly as fast as a friable waterstone.

The shapton is somewhere between (the pro cream), but you can gouge it on a push if you're not careful. I can push sharpen turning tools on one, but you can't be rough like you can be with oilstones, diamond hones or spydercos.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I've decided to sell m 10K Gokumyo if anyone is interested. (it's in the classifieds)


I agree with David about marketing... man that took me a while to understand, and by a while I mean trying every stone I can get my hands on. bottom line it's about finding the stones that work for you the way you want and then also learning how to work with them. I know some very capable fine woodworking guys who still use King stones.