Lost in the stones - japanese stones

[Fidel Fernandez]

I have a little question about all this.
I understand the difference between stones in the 8K range.
My question is when do you need to go to 10K or 13K? Do you really need to go there if you are not carving?
What would I miss in my normal use of japanese chisels, western chisels (not expensive ones), western planes (old and new) and a potential japanese plane if I don't have the 13K stone.

[David Weaver]

Narrow differences are useful for working a full bevel (like japanese tools) and for sharpening knives for show where you have a bevel that you want to look perfect over the entire surface, and not just at the edge.

You're not missing anything if you don't have both, it'll never really affect your work. Sharpness of 0.73 micron above sharpness at 1.5 micron or so is a matter of pleasure for the user.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've decided to sell m 10K Gokumyo if anyone is interested. (it's in the classifieds)


I agree with David about marketing... man that took me a while to understand, and by a while I mean trying every stone I can get my hands on. bottom line it's about finding the stones that work for you the way you want and then also learning how to work with them. I know some very capable fine woodworking guys who still use King stones.

After double checking My 6k is actually made by King. Only my 800 and 1000 are sun tiger.

I've had these things for 15~ years and have been using them for that long. Not until the past few years have I really been using them to the extent that allowed me to figure out what I like or don't like about them.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ordered my Snow White stone. I actually decided to go for the 13k also, but the remaining stock was sold out, this must have been a very convincing thread, lol. I'll pick one up when I again feel the itch.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You should buy as much from Japan as you can before the whole place gets destroyed. See article: http://phys.org/news/2014-10-colossa...ion-japan.html

[Fidel Fernandez]

Ordered my Snow White stone. I actually decided to go for the 13k also, but the remaining stock was sold out, this must have been a very convincing thread, lol. I'll pick one up when I again feel the itch.

Lee Valley has the 13K, not at the Tools from Japan price.

[Matthew N. Masail]

After double checking My 6k is actually made by King. Only my 800 and 1000 are sun tiger.

I've had these things for 15~ years and have been using them for that long. Not until the past few years have I really been using them to the extent that allowed me to figure out what I like or don't like about them.

Thats a good point. I used my 1000\4000 king combo until it good too thin and cracked, then started the whole rabbit hole fall when I bought new stones and started noticing the difference in how the stones work and how I want them too. I think your desire is perfectly valid, and finding the right set-up for you is not only bliss but completely functional. my point was exactly that, some people like the kings, and since it works for them, it a good set-up. now they might get all messed up when they discover other stones, but using king has not hurt their woodworking that's for sure.
Therefore, discussing of if X stone is better than X stone can be misleading. I've tried maybe about 2 dozen stones, many of the recommended ones here were not at all what I wanted even though on "forum paper" they were great. you might hate the snow-white, you might love it (I think you'll love if it's anything like my 3k chosera). If you haven't yet bought a 1k stone, I can highly recommend a 1k shapton. I hve a chosera 800, a 1k shapton and a eze-lap diamond plate on my sharpening bench right now, the cho and shapton are VERY similar, the shapton being more ceramic and aggressive feeling and the cho being more subdued and creamy, but they cut about the same speed and leave similar finish. the cho seems like it will stay flat a little better, but it costs more. the eze-lap kicks a## and my cho lives and a drawer.

I did not like the 13k sigma for a few reasons, but it will "max out" your edge and the blade will cut like a dream. if you strop it's not work the bother IMCO.

[David Weaver]

The king is a workable stone, but it's really not very good per-se at anything. It doesn't cut very fast, and it doesn't produce a very good edge. I'd slurry it in a heavy slurry (as in not much water in the slurry) to try to get a little more cut rate out of it.

The king 800 and 6000 were the very first stones I ever had, and a friend had the 8000 and now I have one, too, as a novelty, but I really like pretty much every other similar priced stone I've tried (kitayama, SP, Shapton, Nani Snow White) much better than the king 6k. You never really know who a stone like that is designed for, it may have other characteristics that make it preferable to a knife sharpener or something, I don't know.

It's not like you can't do good work with it, it's just sort of unimpressive if you're treating yourself when you sharpen.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thats a good point. I used my 1000\4000 king combo until it good too thin and cracked, then started the whole rabbit hole fall when I bought new stones and started noticing the difference in how the stones work and how I want them too. I think your desire is perfectly valid, and finding the right set-up for you is not only bliss but completely functional. my point was exactly that, some people like the kings, and since it works for them, it a good set-up. now they might get all messed up when they discover other stones, but using king has not hurt their woodworking that's for sure.
Therefore, discussing of if X stone is better than X stone can be misleading. I've tried maybe about 2 dozen stones, many of the recommended ones here were not at all what I wanted even though on "forum paper" they were great. you might hate the snow-white, you might love it (I think you'll love if it's anything like my 3k chosera). If you haven't yet bought a 1k stone, I can highly recommend a 1k shapton. I hve a chosera 800, a 1k shapton and a eze-lap diamond plate on my sharpening bench right now, the cho and shapton are VERY similar, the shapton being more ceramic and aggressive feeling and the cho being more subdued and creamy, but they cut about the same speed and leave similar finish. the cho seems like it will stay flat a little better, but it costs more. the eze-lap kicks a## and my cho lives and a drawer.

I did not like the 13k sigma for a few reasons, but it will "max out" your edge and the blade will cut like a dream. if you strop it's not work the bother IMCO.

Since the Sigma's are out of stock at TFJ I'll just wait. I appreciate that they are at LV, but I am not in a hurry to add it to the rotation, though I do want to give it a try at some point.

Exactly, and for me it's been an interesting learning experience. Using stones everyday while working really helps you figure out a lot about them. Mostly flattening backs, in fact. Doing so for a few years allows enough frustration that a good change will be noticeable.

My 1k doesnt really drive me crazy (works quite well infact) so I dont think I will replace it.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I eventually settled on stones that don't need soaking, and I use a eze-lap as a 1k partly because it needs no maintenance. so I only have 1 stone to care for and that is my honing stone of choice. since I use a hard stone and free hand relatively evenly when using them, I only flatten a stone once in a while. it makes all the difference to me compared to taking stones in and out of water and dealing with stone slurry and such. I wouldn't want to live with a 1k king again, but you like it (-: the best 1k soaker I've ever used was surprisingly the 2k beaster, it's a beast and you can easily jump to a 8k from it.


For Flattening backs I'll use a 1.2k sigma power in the kitchen where I have running water, and if need be I'll use sandpaper on MDF first, it's not an everyday thing so I don't need my everyday setup to work that way.

[Matthew N. Masail]

The king is a workable stone, but it's really not very good per-se at anything. It doesn't cut very fast, and it doesn't produce a very good edge. I'd slurry it in a heavy slurry (as in not much water in the slurry) to try to get a little more cut rate out of it.

The king 800 and 6000 were the very first stones I ever had, and a friend had the 8000 and now I have one, too, as a novelty, but I really like pretty much every other similar priced stone I've tried (kitayama, SP, Shapton, Nani Snow White) much better than the king 6k. You never really know who a stone like that is designed for, it may have other characteristics that make it preferable to a knife sharpener or something, I don't know.

It's not like you can't do good work with it, it's just sort of unimpressive if you're treating yourself when you sharpen.

I think your right that some stones are designed for certain uses. the 1.2 sigma only really made sense to me when I sharpened a stainless knife with it, turns out sigma power are knife makers, and most of their stuff is stainless\modern steels.


The 8k king gives a really good edge, but for the price of a 3k chosera it's not very competitive. I got to try the 1k and 8k shaptons. I think the snow white is the only stone I'm still curios about.

[David Weaver]

No reason to get it if you have the 8k shapton. It makes a similar edge quality and is a little more friable (and bigger and thicker).

The bester 1k and 1200 are the ones that stick out to me as being miles different. The 1k is friable, and I just don't like it much for tools. I think knife people like stones that are a little softer. It's not like they would've made those two the way they are by accident because they've been selling them for eons.

I remember seen advertisement literature saying that the king 8K uses natural stone powder in it. I find that confusing. Natural stone powder will be dominated by al-ox particles, but maybe that was an attempt with a very early synthetic stone to get people to transition from a natural stone. The only stone I have ever seen that can come close to synthetic stones in speed is okudo suita, but okudo suita is expensive and some of them are fine and hard and some of them are softer (I just note them because they are the only natural stone I have ever seen that will make black swarf with high speed steel and sharpen it like a synthetic to a very good edge with no wire edge).

(I am NOT suggesting people should go looking for an okudo suita finish stone)

[Matthew N. Masail]

I would not suggest spending a fortune on stones either. I don't own the 8k shapton or the 1k, they belong to a friend, but I don't feel like I need an 8k, I'm just curios about the SW.
my 3k chosera + strop gives an edge that will do everything just as well or better than the shapton 8k. I just ordered a 4k naniwa Hayabusa though, I'm hoping it will be just a little finer and polish more than the cho3k, because I find stronger cutting stones much easier and faster to use for honing, especially when they polish and cut very finely. I still go by the 2 stone only rule, and using the honing stone to flip over the burr insures I have worked all the way to the edge. a super fine stone can't really do that for you.

[Brian Holcombe]

David and Co,

thanks is for the rec on the Snow White, it is superb. Really cuts nicely without clogging.

[Brian Holcombe]

Gentlemen,

Just wanted to say thanks for the help on this, the snow white is fantastic. I did not know what I was missing, but the results are fantastic. I have reground an polished blades as I'm going to give this stone a fresh start on my blades, the results have been fantastic.

I could use my jointer as a finish plane, even with a thick cut the results are super smooth cuts.