Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40

Thread: Dovetail Survey - Real Ones

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076

    Dovetail Survey - Real Ones

    I said something a while ago about taking pictures of some of the dovetails on my parents' furniture to counter the idea that many dovetails are sloppier than what beginners make. So, here's some pictures.

    You can tell that most of these were done at speed (of course, they were a commodity item), but there are things that beginners could take from the in proportions, and especially in drawer thickness (none of these are fat 3/4" thick drawer sides) and wood selection (well from some of them - at least a couple are quartered, but others are not).

    Some of this furniture was in the house when I was growing up, but some wasn't - a lot of our furniture came from a relative who had a furniture store, so we had a lot of bland pennsylvania house branded type stuff that was made of solid wood, but very boring rounded over queen anne style stuff.

    I don't get into furniture, so I don't know which if these things qualify as candle stands or end tables or side tables or whatever else.

    IMG_20141128_085623_355[1].jpg

    One of the tails is broken here. The stand these are in looks like this:

    IMG_20141127_170855_970[1].jpg

    And another small stand in another room (check out the repair on the front):

    IMG_20141128_085335_158[1].jpgIMG_20141128_085349_974[1].jpg
    Last edited by David Weaver; 12-03-2014 at 8:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    IMG_20141128_135918_502[1].jpg

    These are on a small night stand in their upstairs. I thought this was interesting because they look like they broke at one time or were mismatched, and were filled with some sort of filled glue, and now they've failed again. This is on the opposite side from what you'd see when you sleep, who knows how long they've been like this. Parents were not aware that they were broken (I didn't look at the other side, it might've told a story about whether or not the sides are original to the drawer. There are a lot of people who flip antiques where I grew up, the repair could've been done by someone trying to make a few dollars. Otherwise, I don't know who would've thought it was acceptable)

    Another side table (call it a light and phone stand these days)

    IMG_20141128_085502_979[1].jpgIMG_20141128_085517_717[1].jpg

    Those look pretty decent.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    And a dovetails from a couple of chests. I don't know where my parents got all of the chests they have, but they have gobs of chests like these and a TON of old finger jointed crates with store lingo on them. These also look pretty tight

    IMG_20141128_131206_202[1].jpg

    And while I was out, scouting antique shops for planes that could be pitched to harvest their irons, I took a couple of pictures (could've or should've taken a lot more). These two chests were stacked on top of each other. The one on the top was totally beaten, but it appears at least that early on, the dovetails were all made pretty tight, and in nice proportion.

    IMG_20141128_135846_615[1].jpgIMG_20141128_131228_317[1].jpg

    And one more random picture of a bottom drawer on another blanket chest my parents have - sorry for the blur - the house is old and fairly dark, and it's not easy to get pictures with the phone. I thought the method at the bottom of this drawer was interesting, it doesn't just terminate at the bottom like most half blinds.

    IMG_20141128_135958_056[1].jpg

    Most of the stuff is not particularly old, at least not for the area. The chests may be, who knows... Some of the antique stores have REALLY old stuff (new oxford, pa, or near there) including work benches from time to time (being sold as decor), but a lot of it is really beat.

    I did not cull any nasty looking dovetails to find these, with the exception of one really beat chest that looked like it was probably never intended to be a nice chest in the first place (and that was in an antique store).
    Last edited by David Weaver; 12-03-2014 at 8:33 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Its kinda interesting. Would be more interesting to know if this was high end or utilitarian furniture. One thing is for certain is that whoever did these didn't spend a lot of time getting advice from this website. For example, his dovetail angles are all over the place. That and the spacings and placements of the tails are all over the place.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    Some of these dovetails are ugly, and some are not. I would rather look at things like these than perfectly laid out dovetails ala cosman (just my opinion), they make the furniture a lot more interesting and it's no contest which type I'd rather cut (fiddling with marking gauges and marking lines everywhere vs. just cutting the tails by eye?).

    If you have some older stuff that is more commodity or middle class type stuff like these, I'd love to see the pictures.

    No M&T failures in any of this furniture, and a lot of what my parents have is pegged M&T, even though some of it's not that old. I guess that probably helps in manufacturing the small tables in a skilled or semi-skilled shop.

    I did not take a picture of any of their really cheap stuff, the old cheap stuff has nailed drawers.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    North of Boston, MA
    Posts
    357
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Its kinda interesting. Would be more interesting to know if this was high end or utilitarian furniture. One thing is for certain is that whoever did these didn't spend a lot of time getting advice from this website. For example, his dovetail angles are all over the place. That and the spacings and placements of the tails are all over the place.
    Which, I think, was David's point That plus the fact that despite these cosmetic flaws, the fit is mainly tight, meaning that the worker could have made evenly shaped and spaced tails if he thought it was worth the effort.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    For example, his dovetail angles are all over the place. That and the spacings and placements of the tails are all over the place.
    I think it's middle of the range or may be high middle for its time (since there probably wasn't much of a middle class), but not similar to the stuff that is ogled over and sold in galleries. I'm sure all of this stuff came from flea markets and lower end antique dealers and furniture flippersaround where I grew up.

    Some things go wrong when doing that. This walnut two-piece came from a local dealer, and for not much money. Someone has completely refinished it, and I would guess probably sanded off all of the lines of character that it had on it.

    IMG_20141128_085703_211[1].jpg
    Last edited by David Weaver; 12-03-2014 at 10:58 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Chevy Chase, Maryland
    Posts
    2,484
    Rules are for chumps. Generalizations are not absolute. We don't know if it's good until it exists and we see it.

    Functional, attractive dovetails come in lots of varieties. Neat, sloppy, planned, cut on the fly, a variety of spacings, narrow or wide pinned, etc. There is nothing more "real" about these than contemporary handcut dovetails.
    ~ Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post
    Rules are for chumps. Generalizations are not absolute. We don't know if it's good until it exists and we see it.

    Functional, attractive dovetails come in lots of varieties. Neat, sloppy, planned, cut on the fly, a variety of spacings, narrow or wide pinned, etc. There is nothing more "real" about these than contemporary handcut dovetails.
    Lighten up, Francis, I just used the term because it gives us an actual idea of what the dovetails were before instructional videos and without opinions from some that all old dovetails were really sloppy. Some were, I'm sure I could've looked around the antique shop and found some ugly ones with damage or misfits. The workaday "real" ones like these were not so sloppy.

    You get to make yours however you like without any interference from me, though. Your dime and your time, you make them however you like. My favorites are still the ones that are out of view unless a drawer or something is temporarily open. While the large chests look fairly nice and it's interesting to see that they did a pretty nice job fitting the dovetails on commodity furniture, I'd still rather not see nails or dovetails at all. Commodity chests aren't going to have a hidden mitered dovetail, though.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    136
    I build period furniture and cut all my dovetails by hand. I purposely space the tails/pins at different intervals to display that they are cut by hand and not by fixture. On occasion I will even nick the drawer face or over-cut the tails to depict the cut by hand construction. Although I don't change the angle of the dovetails, I do not worry too much about small gaps.

    David Turner
    Plymouth, MI.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Baumgartner View Post
    Which, I think, was David's point That plus the fact that despite these cosmetic flaws, the fit is mainly tight, meaning that the worker could have made evenly shaped and spaced tails if he thought it was worth the effort.
    Exactly. And there's an element of humanity and life left with these that is more pleasing to the eye. Measured and marked attempts at perfection leaves a cold and lifeless looking drawer side (to me).

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Chevy Chase, Maryland
    Posts
    2,484
    I assure you I'm "light."

    I highly value the "imperfections" of hand work. I personally believe they tend to give pieces soul. They let the hand of the maker come through.

    I don't fetishize the old ways however, especially when they seem sloppy, are not optimal, or compromise integrity. Like when Shwarz made that table and attached the top in the "traditional" way which ensured that it would split, when attaching it in a way farmer Bill was ignorant of would have been perfectly easy and made it look just the same, but for the split.
    ~ Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    7,254
    Blog Entries
    7
    Interesting stuff. My great grandparents had similar stuff after they became established in the 40's and could afford some good furniture.

    To me it looked like it came from a shop that must have done a huge variety of classical styles, focused on making the finished parts very well and with utilitarian underpinnings. Good, but not luxury.

    IMO, I would think a shop creating luxury period furniture would be incredibly specific about the details and would probably be able to afford more time spend in layout. Similar to studio furniture at current.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 12-03-2014 at 9:11 AM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    Yeah, I don't necessarily get attached to the "old ways" either. The point if these has more to do with them being workaday type than the old days. For all I know, a couple of these could've been built in the 1900s, and they are nowhere close to the oldest stuff you find in shops in PA and northern or eastern shore Maryland.

    I'm sort of partial to the "old ways" on wooden planes, but not the oldest, either. I bird dog early 19th century planes because I think they're the best made. I would not make anything that I expected to fail, but in that case, the customer is buying something other than woodworking (it's bloggertainment or whatever you call it. It's sort of a Tru TV version of woodworking). I suspect if David Turner did a show of building stuff, it wouldn't be quite so much pine and milk paint and clumsiness.

    There used to be discussions on wood central maybe, where several people would argue about just how sloppy older work was. I can't remember who fell on what angle, but it went from slight cosmetic imperfections (like these) to practically falling apart with gigantic overcuts. I'm not that interested in furniture, and thus never had a dog in the fight other than that I wouldn't intentionally make sloppy joints for an aesthetic.

    I would assume that the legs on these pieces of furniture are turned on a duplicator machine, and if not, by someone who is cutting gobs of the same leg and has learned to do them like a duplicator.

    Far different type stuff than the bombe chests or boston/philly's best efforts.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 12-03-2014 at 9:13 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,076
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Interesting stuff. My great grandparents had similar stuff after they became established in the 40's and could afford some good furniture.

    To me it looked like it came from a shop that must have done a huge variety of classical styles, focused on making the finished parts very well and with utilitarian underpinnings. Good, but not luxury.

    IMO, I would think a shop creating luxury period furniture would be incredibly specific about the details and would probably be able to afford more time spend in layout. Similar to studio furniture at current.
    Mine also commissioned some modern stuff from a local maker (all made by the same guy) and it looked a bit modern to me -they got it around the same time. It was very carefully made, but had a lot more evidence of machine tool (doors that had a very rounded over profile on them and that were not overlay doors but not flush fit, either. It was nice furniture, very tight, but a bit plain and modernized for me. That said, it locally brought a bunch of money - several thousand dollars for each piece, even thought I doubt it would elsewhere).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •