Interesting, any recollection of who the maker was?
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Interesting, any recollection of who the maker was?
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
[OP]
Guest
No, but he was one of many around us. My parents might recall (i'll ask them), but it is stuff I think that wouldn't interest us much - looks more like modern factory furniture, just neatly made and sized to whatever you need. Their furniture was all cherry, which is common around where I grew up for later furniture, and has the overpowering dark reddish brown "cherry" stain on it.Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe
I think the appeal other than the tidiness was that the maker was not cheap, and not amish or mennonite, but he made clean furniture that middle class folks could afford a piece or two of. Everyone around us of any age had a grandfather clock, too. Nothing spectacular (relatively plain looking casework), but they could tell you the aspects of the movements in the clock because they were hand made and cost what to them was a great deal of money - probably the equivalent of $5000 or so now.
My grandparents were of the type who lived through the depression, and people seemed to either go one way or another where one way was to keep everything they ever came across, or the other was to have a few reasonably nice things, but nothing flashy and not waste money on things they didn't need (the fear of running out of money is ever present in every discussion). My grandparents were of the second type. My parents are of the first, but they will barter junk if someone else wants something of little monetary value. They have trouble throwing things away, though - not like hoarders shows with old bags of garbage or food or anything, but anything else is fair game to keep or find a place for.
Last edited by David Weaver; 12-03-2014 at 9:50 AM.
Contributor
On antique fine furniture, much as it is on modern fine furniture, the dovetails and other joinery were more or less perfect. I have no problem with imperfection. The great guitar builder, William Cumpiano, refers to it as being able to see the hand of the maker. He never meant it to mean that sloppiness was OK, or somehow desirable. It's just that everything doesn't need to be perfect, even though that's what you strive for. Honestly, I've seen plenty of sloppy machine cut dovetails as well, obviously due to rushing the setup, lack of skill, or maybe just plain laziness, so I don't think much has changed concerning different levels of craftsmanship and price points. I find it very irritating when I see sloppiness when you know the guy could have done much better, but really just didn't care. I just feel like, "I did my best work to earn the money to pay you. Why didn't you do your best work to earn it from me?"
But I happen to think that Cosman's videos, in particular, are great. He's a fine craftsman, but a really world class teacher, I think.
Member
Proportion could really be better on this piece. And it would not be the first p[iece of furniture messed up by gobs of sanding.
[OP]
Guest
He is, and a lot of people have learned to cut really tight dovetails. I just don't like the thick drawer side look, and I've noticed that once people hammer down his methods, some of them really go bananas with the dovetails, making a lot of really plain stuff with through mortises and extremely carefully laid out dovetails but with fat drawer sides. It sort of types the work right away.
Who knows, maybe people will look at that in 100 years and find it favorable?
I agree on the guitars. Some of the older guitars don't look like they were done perfectly, and there is an assumption that they were always better than new. Some of the new boutique made stuff is so tight these days that it's just about at perfection. The only time I've gotten a guitar of any price that had some flaws in it (that were cosmetic, but by no means offended me) was buying a Golden Eagle from Heritage about 10 years ago. Those guys were from the old days, maybe that's why.
it cost me a lot of money when I sold the guitar, though. I didn't have the heart to send it back to them when I got it new, the issues were fairly minor, but not minor to other people I guess for a guitar that was inching toward $4k. If those same flaws had been on an older gibson, nobody would've said much. Expensive lesson!
The diminishing quality with name that you speak of made me learn eventually that it's probably better to buy from the guy who is trying to make a name for himself than it is to buy from the guy who already has made his. I'm happy to be over the guitar buying disorder. If I were to do it all over again, I'd go to a custom maker and order the plainest thing they made (dot inlays, no figured wood, etc) and tell them I'd pitch in a few extra bucks to get them to do their very best work despite the guitar being very plain.
[OP]
Guest
Yeah, it's very chubby. There is a gigantic walnut table in the room with it that is also very chubby, though, too. Their fatness goes together (it has also been refinished).
Member
It looks to me like we should have learned a lesson or two from all of this, but in many cases we have not(looking at some of the work today). Speed seems to be the norm of today, and just build it good enough to get it out of warranty. Quality of workmanship, like quality of planes sort of went away prior to World War II. Now this is not to say people hear do not do good work, excellent is the word I would use for the work seen on the creek. I agree with Sean, mistakes give our work some flavor and style. It just proves we are not perfect and can slip once in a while.
You never get the answer if you don't ask the question.
Joe
Member
Several years ago Roy Underhill had a show on cutting dovetails and the one thing I took from it was the manner in which he was cutting his dovetails. No layout tools were used other than marking the baseline of the dovetails. All angles and spacing was by eye. I began to use this technique on many of the things I build and find that it greatly speeds up the process. When doing this there is no doubt that the dovetails are hand cut and your sense or proportion, or lack thereof are on display.
Contributor
For me, dovetails can be purely functional as or they can be a design element. For shop quality items, I'm going to make them strong but the layout will be efficient and I'm not going to worry about a couple of gaps. Same for dovetails on furniture that won't be seen. However if they are going to show, including drawer fronts, I'm going to spend some time on the layout and I'm going to put maximum effort into getting them neatly cut and tight fitting.
Most people don't know a hand cut dovetail from a doughnut, so I'm going to attempt to make what I like. I may be the only person who ever cares about it.
I'll echo Joe's sentiments. The work shown here is far, far above the norm. IMO, the work shown in this forum ranges from well made to world class. Where else can you find a detailed debate about dovetails.
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Member
Dovetails are design elements until you've got to make
twenty drawers - then they're functional.
I'm going to try the utilitarian approach of the interlocking
rabbet joint. That should be easy enough to cut by hand
with the tools I already own.
I'm looking over some of the photos in the OP and it
appears that some of the drawer fronts were "blown out"
by being forced shut, with no stop to keep the drawer
front clear. That's the weak spot of the lock rabbet, too.
[OP]
Guest
I have a lock rabbet in the kitchen drawers (in my house - the cabinets are probably circa 1970). They are pinned then on top of the lock rabbet. When I have had to repair a few sides, I've found the pins are the only thing holding them.
I don't have a problem with that, it was easy enough to make replacement sides for the drawer fronts, and I'd rather have drawers that can be repaired than almost indestructible joints that can't.
Contributor
When I build something, I strive to do the best I can. If I make a mistake, I will correct it as best as I can. Sometimes this is difficult to spot, other times I have to decide whether I can live with it, or whether it must be redone. My work is not perfect. I do not expect it to be.
Trying to make something look "hand made" when using hand tools is a tautology. My work is hand made, supplemented with machines. I do not make deliberate mistakes to send a message to others that it was made by hand and not a machine. I consider it farcical that someone will deliberately make a sloppy joint - dovetail or otherwise - or add blemishes just to convey a message about construction. The only message that it conveys to me is that the individual either lacks pride in their work or is dishonest.
I am not sure I know what David is trying to say by posting the pictures of sloppy dovetails - that is is OK to make sloppy dovetails because the furniture makers used to do so 100 years ago? I am not pretending to be an olde world professional furniture maker attempting to churn out second-rate drawers. I am a modern amateur furniture maker that has the time and takes pride in making something as perfectly as I can. No, I am not suggesting that one should only accept perfect dovetails. I am not trying to glorify dovetails - they are just one part of a build - all parts of a build should be treated the same, that is, do the best you can.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
Both sets of my great grandparents seemed to go to the direction of good furnishings but sparing in their use and never really doing much in the way of excess.
If you could build it, you built it, otherwise you bought as best you could afford so as to get many years of use. A common sentiment of the era, IMO.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
[OP]
Guest
My original point was more along the lines of I don't think that most commodity dovetails were that sloppy with gaping holes or wonky stuff. The wonks in these appear to be breakage or wear, but most of them look pretty handsome to me for a joint that is expected to stay hidden.
I don't do overcuts in my dovetails and such, either. I strive for a little less perfection in measuring than you, but again, mine stay hidden - mostly just drawers or in a couple of cases...cases that have wrapped moulding, so the HBDT at the top and through dovetails at the bottom won't be seen. I also don't go quite for the english pins (the tiny ones) but I don't see anything wrong with them).
My point is that reality in this era of commodity furniture seems to be what I'd call handsome dovetails, especially those intended to show on the sides of chests, and not slop, but also not someone sitting around with dividers charting out OCD level layout. In my opinion, these types are more attractive than perfectly laid out, but that's my opinion. Garish mistakes, open holes and bad fitting joints, even on perfectly laid out (or not so perfectly laid out) dovetails however, I have no taste for that. I guess in the world of the old perfect vs. sloppy, I choose in the middle somewhere but the aspects that you have latitude on are particular things. layout doesn't have to be perfect, but execution should be tidy and handsome.
Everyone gets to decide what they want to do, though, it's not my business to do anything other than dig up pictures of actual "old stuff" that isn't intended for royalty, but is also not just nailed together shoddy. Visually, I FAR prefer these types of dovetails shown to 30 drawers pulled open with identical looking dovetails that appear to come from a cosman video and have 3/4 inch thick side stock. Again, that's opinion.
I'd disagree, though, that most of the dovetails I showed are "sloppy". I'd call it much more visually interesting than the measured and marked type that are popular now. Plus, they are better hidden - I've said that about half a dozen times already in this set of pictures.
Last edited by David Weaver; 12-03-2014 at 11:57 AM.
Contributor
Hi David
My reaction was not entirely to your illustrations, but also to some of the posts in the thread, as well as the memory of posts on other forums that appear to glorify the rough-and-ready look as being more representative of the olde world furniture makers. Chris Schwarz once linked to a fellow who has collected thousands of photos of dovetailed drawers, many of them that looked like they have been gnawed by beavers. What was the message here?
I have no doubt that there is a whole world of drawers that were made with gappy dovetails, and the buyers did not care. But that does not interest me. I would rather emulate a high end maker if I must set out a model to follow. This does not mean that the result should be uniform and mechanistic. It simply means that the standard of the work is to be as high as I can take it.
Design is another matter. Don't equate making with design. Like you, I find more interest in something that adds character. With dovetails, this means creating the profile for the situation - large, small, irregular, regular, spaced, etc. Jim Krenov used this to great effect. All I am trying to say is that character comes from thoughtful design, not sloppy work.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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