Making a panel saw from an old full size plate? Plate thicknesses?

[Andy Cleland]

Hello everyone, I'm looking at making 4 panel saws in the near future in the 20" range (a pair of rip/crosscut saws for traveling tool sets for myself and my father). I tend to buy any old Disston saws I come across if they have little to no pitting, a tapered plate,and brass sawnuts. So I have a few junkers picked up in box lots that aren't worth much. I've retoothed several saws and am comfortable with that process, and enjoy making handles so those areas are covered, but I'm thinking about plates.

Buying steel or ordering plates from Two Guys in a Garage would up the cost considerably, and wouldn't have tapered plates, which I like. What are the communities thoughts on cutting down old full size saws to panel length? I don't have an authentic panel saw to measure plate thicknesses on at various points, but I'm thinking that if I remove the excess length from the heel rather than the toe I might end up with thicknesses and weights similar to a true vintage panel saw, as well as removing the old bolt holes so I could punch the appropriate ones for the new panel saw sized handles.

Is there anything I'm not considering? I'd like for these to end up with all the same positive attributes of a quality panel saw from the glory days, which I see as:
1.) Shorter length (obviously) for ease of storage in the tool chests as well as using at a bench rather than saw benches.
2.) Smaller handles for a comfortable 3 finger grip.
3.) Lighter weight.
4.) Thinner Kerf?

So what say you, toolmakers?

[Jim Koepke]

Andy,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't show your location. I am guessing you might be somewhere in the west from the PM you sent.

The LOML & I were in Vancouver, WA a few weeks ago. They had a couple of panel saws. They sometimes have some good saws and sometimes they are just too rusty.

Oops! Forgot to mention it was at the Habitat For Humanity Restore.

Saws are kind of strange for some of us. Even though there are more than can be used in my shop there is a tendency to still look at them and occasionally buy one.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I'd get an old panel saw to work on instead. Panel saws with lighter plates are out there in 24" size, which would give you a little bit to cut down if you wanted to modify something.

A heavy plate is just going to be too rigid and seem too heavy and bulky.

That said, I don't think you need to cut down a saw plate to use the saw in the bench, unless your bench is narrow and against the wall. One of my nicest saws to use for stuff in a vise is a 26" 12 tooth count spear and jackson saw that's of unknown age (it's old, not recent). I never wish it was shorter, and I've got a couple of proper panel saws in my till that I prefer it to.

But if you want that size, scout for 24" saw plated saws (and if they are a type that may have smaller handles on panel saws, like a 12 or 7 disston, the ones with smaller handles will have a lighter plate usually), they'll be a little lighter than 26-28 inch carpenters saws.

[Andy Cleland]

David,

I forgot to mention that some of the candidates I'm considering of using for this are D-23 saws, so called "lightweights" How would this affect what you mentioned regarding lighter plates on panel saws?

I suppose one thing I'm lacking is knowledge of what the plate thicknesses/weights of a true panel saw really are, as I don't have one to measure or compare. Does anyone know of a reference where I might find this information on a representative or regarded as superior model of panel saw? Looking more towards the older Disston types, as Lie-Nielsen is kind enough to provide the thickness specification of their taper ground panel saws.

[David Weaver]

I'll measure some of mine tonight if nobody does before then. I haven't seen commonality among the various manufacturers in terms of taper front to back and top to bottom, which is probably also true on panel saws.

I don't know how the D-23s get "lightweight", if they're smaller plates or thinner plates or both - I've mostly stayed away from light profile full sized saws. I'm sure someone can measure one (but a plate from an actual top grade (double tapered) panel saw is still a safe bet because it already is what you're making)

[lowell holmes]

I have a 10 tpi cross cut D-23 that I cut down to panel saw length. It was an old saw, rather pointy on the tip.

I've never regretted doing so. I will say, the 8 tpi panel saw I have has a smaller handle than my 26" hand saws. The cut down saw is heavier than the panel saw.

I've considered making a panel saw sized handle for it, but probably never will. I have a pattern for the 8 tpi panel saw that I have and will share. It is from my panel saw.

[Ron Bontz]

Well I like the more robust saw plates myself. A 26" plate or even a 24" plate at 0.042" tooth line. A 22" or 24" at 0.035" tooth line. I have seen 20" panel saws down to 0.032" tooth lines. I have a couple of 22" that are 0.035" and I like them. Beyond that, if you are making these from full size plates, 26" or longer. You should be able to isolate the area of the saw plate with the thickness you desire. Just cutting the toe off to make them shorter won't help you much, if you desire a thinner plate more appropriate for the size of saw you are making. Got a good micrometer? Best of luck.

[David Weaver]

Here's what I get from an older disston #12 panel - 24" long

Heel - toothline - .035"
Top back line - .033"
Toe - toothline - .035"
Toe, top line - .029"

And from an older disston D-8 panel - 22" long:

Heel - toothline - .039"
Top back line - .038"
Toe - toothline - .035"
Toe, top line - .031"

For a full sized saw, 28 inch tooth line, the entire plate is about a hundredth thicker than that all over, and it makes them much more rigid. (so even the top section of the large saws is thicker than a panel saw profile - something I always thought in the past might be a good way to come up with a saw - to cut a plate short from the back and cut a few inches off of the bottom, but even then the plate would be a bit thick.

[Andy Cleland]

Thanks so much David for taking the time to measure those, I appreciate it, and that's really interesting! The two D23's I just measured (granted with an inexpensive harbor freight digital caliper) were:

(Saw #1, originally an 8 point, 26" tooth line)
Heel tooth line: 0.032"
Top back line: 0.029"
Toe, tooth line: 0.030
Toe, back line: 0.015"



(Saw #2, originally a 10 point, 26" tooth line)
Heel tooth line: 0.037"
Top back line: 0.035"
Toe, tooth line: 0.032
Toe, back line: 0.020"

So while one saw averaged about 3 thou thicker in all places, they are very very close to what your panel saws measure, assuming our measuring devices are comparable (a big if, I know).

Measured 18" back from the toe (about where the measurement would be taken if this saw was shortened by removing from the heel end) saw #2 measures 0.031" at the top back line.

Both saws have about 1 1/2" of depth at the toe as is, which I think it's a little small to file a respectable looking nib into. Given these dimensions it looks to me that I might be able to remove 3" from both ends and leave 2" at the toe for a nib and still have thicknesses comparable or even slightly thinner than a traditional panel saw.

[David Weaver]

Glad to see ron's said the same thing for his panel saws (as in vintage, not necessarily "his" saws).

It's interesting that the lightweight saws are ground like panel saws, maybe even with more grind at the top toe than most panel saws. If they are tensioned well, your plan should work.

I have had a couple of light weight saws (just not a D-23) and didn't like them much in use, because I'm usually looking for speed. Others may not agree, but I think if you turned them into panel saws, you'd have something preferable to a full sized saw with that amount of grind.