Why Is Oak "Dated"?

[keith micinski]

Sounds like semantics to me. Home values are determined by what OTHER comparable homes are selling for within a given period within a given location. And those values are determined by what the homes sold for. If what you said it true, then we could set a price tag for a home and forget that it could change for whatever reason. Value is a subjective term IMO. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

Your making my point. The homes intrinsic value is not affected by the "one mans garbage theory." Value is not subjective in the least. What someone will pay for it is. A homes value is determined by a number of quantitative factors that can be applied to come to a value. What someone is willing to pay should never affect what the value of an object is. I'm not saying variables can't change and affect the value of something. What I'm saying is personal opinions about items on a given day from a singular person have no bearing whatsoever ever on the value of something.

I'm also not sure how you misunderstood me to say that you could set a price tag for a home and forget that it could change. I sold my last home for 7k over market value as judged by 6 realtors and two appraisers. I sold my one before that at 17k over market value as judged by two realtors two appraisers. The one before that I sold for 6k less then market value as judged by two realtors and two appraisers. The house I sold for 6k less then it appraised for, didnt have a value of 74k. It had a value of 80k no matter what I sold it for. This allowed the young girl that bought it to forgo PMI because she had enough equity into the house with her down payment to not need it. Everyone involved in the transaction valued the home at 80k. I was willing to sell it for less and she was willing to buy it for less. That didn't change the homes value at all.

[keith micinski]

I'll bet loan agents and servicers wouldn't agree with you since they're backing the loan and exposed. The realtors probably wouldn't enjoy setting a price based on something other than the value of the homes either.

When I check online, I keep seeing articles saying that the appraisal should approximate the price of the home based on recent comparable sales.

I think you need to substitute the term value for market value. Julie is trying to sell her house, she needs a realistic market value and not a hypothetical value. Otherwise she runs the risk of being like the prior story of the older gentleman refusing to recognize what the market values.

Realtors rarely use the actual value of a home to decide what the price is that it should be listed at. That's why you will see that 95 percent of homes sell for less then 90 percent of original list. Loan agents and services do use an appraisal process that uses a formula with metrics in it to access the value of the home very, very, accurately. One of those things is comparable home values. Actually that is the main thing they use and carries the most weight although it is getting better since the crash and now there is a little leeway on comps. You know what isn't involved in that formula? The type of wood used in the cabinetry. There is a "feel" that every appraiser has and it can affect the value they feel a home has but not that much. Every FHA home has to be appraised twice, by two completely seperate independent appraisers when you go to sell it. The biggest difference I have seen between the two is 500 dollars. That's not an accident. Value of an item and what someone will pay for it have no correlation whatsoever.

[keith micinski]

I would also like to point out that the original posters complaint of a realtor doing a selling appraisal threw me a little. After re reading it I saw my mistake and thought it was an actual appraisal. What a realtor does is called a market analysis and is at best marginal for determining what a homes value is. It's not much better at determine what a selling price for a home is either. Market analysis can very ten to 15 percent and usually will. Appraisals will rarely very much more then 2-5 percent in my experience and in talking with other more experienced investors, that's their experience also. Get more then one opinion when it comes to realtors and then take the average. This is your best and most realistic starting point. Realtors have an agenda when they are giving you a price and that doesn't do you any favors as the seller. By the way I hate golden oak.

The two homes I am currently looking at were built in 1999 and 2004 with perfectly fine oak cabinetry. The first thing I am doing is painting those things espresso. It will make the home much easier to sell. I can't however tell the bank to deduct the cost of new cabinetry that functions perfectly fine as they would then promptly laugh in my face. That oak could stay like it is and if I sold the home I wouldn't deduct a penny off of the price. What I would have to do is understand that instead of having 3-5 buyers come through to sell the house it could take 10-12 buyers and take longer to sell because of it. Real estate is a numbers game, I could have an older couple come look at the house the first day and view the oak as a selling point. The odds are against that though so you have to plan accordingly. Repeating myself, How sellable something is and the value of something should never be considered the same thing in my book.

[Rick Potter]

I saw a good example of a 'market analysis' recently. I entered my address added 'for sale', and googled it.

Along with finding several satellite views and a google street view of my house, a record of when I bought it, what I paid, and the tax bill, I found at least three sites offering an opinion of what the home is worth if it was for sale, Zillow was one of the sites I remember.

The problem? There was almost a hundred percent difference between the low and the high. The high was way too high, and the low was way too low. The middle estimate was low but within reason.

Now that is market analysis. All done by a computer with no human input, in 10 seconds or less.

[Scott Vigder]

Walk through some brand new houses in the same price range as yours if possible and you'll get a good idea of the colors and finishes that are in. You might even find ideas you like for your next house. We ended up painting about 1/2 our house the #1 selling color at our local SW store (mocha or something like that.)

This is an outstanding suggestion! If you paint your unwanted oak a desireable color, I'll bet you can recover a significant portion of the $15k.

[scott vroom]

This is an outstanding suggestion! If you paint your unwanted oak a desireable color, I'll bet you can recover a significant portion of the $15k.

I'm not a fan of painting cathedral grain oak cabinets without either first filling the grain or refacing with maple or similar closed grain veneer.

Re-reading the original post, Julie mentions "tile color & oak cabinets" as the reasons given for the $15K appraisal downgrade. A typical bathroom has limited cabinetry and the cost to replace, particularly by a DIY woodworker, is minimal compared to the cost of paying for a full tile demo and replacement (typically involving floor/base, shower and/or tub enclosures).

[Scott Vigder]

I'm not a fan of painting cathedral grain oak cabinets without either first filling the grain or refacing with maple or similar closed grain veneer.

Sorry, I assumed it would be filled since I always do.

[Mark Woodmark]

If you can hold out for a month or two it will be back in style. What is out of style today will be in style tomorrow. "Functional obsolescence" seems incorrect since as you stated the bathrooms function ok. I feel it is all by design so designers, cabinet makers, realtors, home builders, etc can insure they will be making money.

People spend a lot of money for solid wood cabinets (i use that term loosely) with dovetailed drawers only to rip them out in 5 to 10 years because they are out of style and it seems cheaper to just replace them completely instead of refacing them

You could paint them white, that seems to be in style right now

[Jim Becker]

Hoo boy, am I in trouble. I am just completing my red oak kitchen, which replaced a 1978 ash kitchen. Mine is a traditional raised panel oak in a semi dark red oak stain. The counters are part dark granite, part (gasp) ceramic tile, unstained natural oak floors, and the obligatory SS appliances. To further complicate the issue, there is a ceiling fan.

I guess I will never be able to sell the place. I will have to wait a generation, then the only thing I will have to upgrade is to swap out to avocado appliances, and it will sell like hotcakes.

Actually, the next owner, who will inherit the house, already lives here. Strangely, the appraiser a year or so ago, gave us a few more bucks for 'upgraded cabinetry', when it was only half done. Must have been an old guy. Like me.

Oh yeah, my rear fence is a freeway fence...16' high or more. I was really surprised when it didn't downgrade my appraisal.

Thanks Rick. I was beginning to think I was the only person left alive who likes Oak. Guess I will have to just die in my house as it seems it would never sell.

It's not that it's "oak"...custom cabinet built by someone who pays attention to details including grain and color is different than what's in a lot of homes out there. Well executed oak is gorgeous. The same goes for any species. Cabinet style also comes into play...

But in the end, it's what floats the home buyer's boat, not what each of us prefer...

As to a market appraisal...that's a very local thing and a good realtor knows what's working well in a give geography and what isn't working. They want homes to sell and to sell for the most money possible. I had one done in 2007 when we were trying to determine whether it would more advantageous to move or build on what we needed for our growing family. It was a very interesting process and yes, there were things clearly identified as being barriers to getting top dollar, despite being a home with "history". (c1750 for part of it)

[Jeff Duncan]

I watched this thread with a bit of interest and seems a lot is being lost along the way. Simply put the real estate agent, if a good one, knows what type of houses are selling at what price. They know that buyers will walk in and see x,y,and z and make an opinion on whether or not they like the house. Any "value" put on it by anybody is moot if nobody buys the house. Hence if there are three houses on the same street built at the same time with the same floor plan, same lot size etc., they should have the same "value" and probably will to the bank. However if 2 of the houses have been updated and one has not, the updated houses are going to sell for more and quicker than the dated one. So in reality they had more value to the buyers than the other. And at the end of the day that's all that matters. If anyone believes that new cabinetry and a good paint job don't affect how quickly a home sells and for how much, then they don't know real estate…..at least not in my area.

But it goes much farther than that, if you build a brand spanking new house and try to sell it, it's much easier to sell it staged with furniture than without. This is why expensive homes often get staged for selling. Even ones that are currently lived in will be staged and often a lot of the owners belongings will need to be put into storage in order for it to look the right way. Depending on the target buyer, (oh yes, they're usually trying to sell to a particular demographic), they'll even change room functions. An extra bedroom could become a nursery, for couples starting a family. Or a home office for young professionals or older empty nesters.

Anyway the point is if the real estate agent, (again if a good one), says the value is less because of condition than they're probably right. Doesn't mean you can't call in another to get a second and even third opinion…..I likely would. However they're usually pretty good at knowing what's going to sell in a specific neighborhood for roughly what price, and what's going to sit around.

Lastly, contrary to what many seem to think oak is not necessarily dated, the style of your cabinetry is dated. There are multi-million dollar homes being built today with oak cabinetry, even in kitchens! I still do a lot of white oak in many high rise buildings, and it's mostly contemporary work! It's not the wood it's the style. Same as tile floors aren't outdated, tile that was used in the 80's is outdated!

good luck,
JeffD

[Billy Elliott]

Had light oak for years and thought it was great. This year my wife said no. and this is what we ended up with, same cabinets with java gel stain and clear coats. Kitchen.jpg

[Ole Anderson]

So, is typical raised panel construction (in Oak) more dated than a more contemporary shaker or mission style?

[Jeff Duncan]

So, is typical raised panel construction (in Oak) more dated than a more contemporary shaker or mission style?

It's not quite that simple. I guess if we're keeping this only to kitchen cabinets I'd say yes, very generally speaking typical oak raised panels are dated. Whereas shaker or mission style "can" look contemporary. But there are a lot of variables that can change that. And once you step outside the kitchen all bets are off, there's a lot you can do with oak that will look good. Again it's not the wood, it's what you do with it

JeffD

[Steve Schoene]

As an economist I am totally confused by your ideas of value. There is no independent "true" value of anything that can be determined by any "accurate" mathematical formula. The basis for values in the confluence of supply and demand, both of which concepts depend exclusively on what sellers and buyers are willing and able to sell or buy, respectively. Appraisers must find a way to estimate what those supply and demand factors will determine. Commercial real estate is priced as a multiple of cash flow, using "cap rates", but the cap rate depends on what supply and demand conditions, including interst rates, are in that market for that type of buildings. All real estate values are very location dependent, including residential real estate. Value is always subjective to a degree. Of course there are different varieties of value such as "replacement cost value" or distressed sale value, or a common concept of willing buyer and willing seller values. It really is more accurate to say6 value is what you can sell it for, as long as you realize that there are caveats attached, such as whether is is some kind of duress or special circumstances affecting either buyer or seller.

[Mark Woodmark]

Plaaaaaaa.................

as an economist i am totally confused by your ideas of value. There is no independent "true" value of anything that can be determined by any "accurate" mathematical formula. The basis for values in the confluence of supply and demand, both of which concepts depend exclusively on what sellers and buyers are willing and able to sell or buy, respectively. Appraisers must find a way to estimate what those supply and demand factors will determine. Commercial real estate is priced as a multiple of cash flow, using "cap rates", but the cap rate depends on what supply and demand conditions, including interst rates, are in that market for that type of buildings. All real estate values are very location dependent, including residential real estate. Value is always subjective to a degree. Of course there are different varieties of value such as "replacement cost value" or distressed sale value, or a common concept of willing buyer and willing seller values. It really is more accurate to say6 value is what you can sell it for, as long as you realize that there are caveats attached, such as whether is is some kind of duress or special circumstances affecting either buyer or seller.