Which saw for tenons?

[Frederick Skelly]

Good evening folks,
Ive read several posts on this in the archives and Im still struggling a bit to figure this out. Im learning to cut M&T joints by hand. I use my veritas small dovetail saw to cut the cheeks and I get a pretty decent result. But its SLOW for cutting cheeks. That dovetail saw is 14 tpi with a cut depth of about 1 9/16". I have these questions:

1) LV sells a carcass rip saw that has 12 tpi. It has a cutting depth of 2 3/8". Will 2 tpi less make a noticable difference in my cutting speed? Enough to warrant $79 for the saw?

2) LV sells a tenon rip saw with 9 tpi. Id expect that to cut much faster, but will that saw be harder to control? (Im still learning handsaw skills. This saw has a 16" blade with a 4" cutting depth.) This saw is $115.

3) Or at my skill level, should I stick with the dovetail saw (because its very controllable) and just live with the speed for now?

Im not ready to learn saw sharpening yet and so Im thinking a new, moderately priced Veritas is a better path for now than going rust hunting. I dont imagine ever needing more than a couple inches of cut depth - I dont build huge things like entertainment centers or beds.

Id appreciate your thoughts and experienced advise here.

Thanks,
Fred

[Paul Sidener]

I would get the larger tenon saw. Your sawing skills will improve, and you never know what you will make two years from now.

[Richard Line]

I've got both the LV dove tail and the carcass (x-cut). I like both. A 12 ppi carcass saw will cut faster (I've got an older Disston clone at 12 ppi that I use a lot for tenons). How fast the dovetail saw will cut a tenon depends on a several variables. Perhaps the 1st is how wide is the cut/tenon (length parallel to cut line). When it gets much more than 1" the saw will be on the slow side. I use mine for tenons up to 2" wide, if they are shallow. The next variable to consider is the rake of the saw's teeth. The LV dovetail and tenon saws come with a 15 deg. rake. After I got comfortable with sawing and the saw, I reduced the rake to something around 8 deg. That made the saw quite a bit faster, but harder to start.

I understand you don't want to get into saw sharpening yet. When you do decide to go there, consider getting the LV sharpening guide. It will reduce your worry about what you are doing.

For now, I would suggest staying with the dovetail saw until you feel really comfortable, then consider the carcass saw. But you will probably also want a cross cut saw by that time. A dilemma. Or change the rake angle, really not that difficult on a rip saw. Or if you are close to some one that does hand sharpen hand saws, see if they will make the change for you.

[Ryan Baker]

Get a rip tenon saw (and eventually a cross-cut carcass saw). The only way your are going to develop skills with it is to get one and start cutting. The tenon saw is really the same thing as your dovetail saw, just a little bigger. The skills are the same.

[Andrew Hughes]

Big saw for big Tenons and little saw for little tenons.Its that simple.

[David Weaver]

I agree with andrew. I've got two dovetail saws, a 14" tenon saw and a 16" tenon saw. I think the 14 is probably about 12 points, the 16 is 10 and it's too heavy and too coarse for a lot of small cabinet work. For some small stub tenons, the dovetail saws are better.

[Sean Reilly]

For the most part I also agree with Andrew. With that said, I do have a tennon saw and it's the large thin plate tenon saw from LN. It cuts through wood like butter. This was my first tenon saw, I got it after reading a lot of older posts and reviews. there was a lot of back and forth about thin plate or not. At the end everyone that tried the thin plate loved it and so do I (it cuts very fast). I will say if your new to using hand saws, this might not be the one to learn with. The thin plate does make it easier to binde the blade if things to wrong. If your just starting out, I would get something cheep on ebay, sharpen it (because you'll need to know how to do that too), then learn with it. Once you get good, then look for something like the large thin plate. It really makes quick work of tenons of any size.

As a side note, I tried to avoid saw sharpening as long as I could. Turned out, it's really not that hard and I would recommend you start learning it right away. That's why I suggest something off ebay. By the time you become very good with the saw and are ready to put up the money for a nice one like LV or LN, you have the sharpening down. Having a "throw-a-way" saw also lets you experiment with different rack angles and such. Just a thought.

[paul cottingham]

I use the LV carcass saws for tenons, and I have never found them to be too small. I have a couple very nice late 19th century tenon saws, but I don't use them as much for tenons. I tried the LV tenon saws, but found them to be super nose heavy (for me) and as a result, they are hard to start (for me.)
The other LV saws are fantastic saws for the money. I suspect the tenon saws are as well, I just find them difficult to use (for me.)

[Jim Koepke]

If the rake is 15º that may be why it seems slow.

My 14 ppi has 9º rake and cuts dovetails fairly fast. Don't recall using it on a tenon yet.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I mostly use a dovetail saw, but for big tenons I use a big thin plate LN tenon saw.

[Chris Hachet]

My take on it is that you own a few different saws. After using them for awhile, you will intuitively reach for the saw that will work best with the piece youa re working on. It also gives you a fantastic excuse for owning way more saws than you actually need if your like me and a tool geek.

But both the LV and LN saws are very, very nice.

[Kees Heiden]

I made two tenon saws. One has a thick, wide heavy brass back and I don't like it very muc. Too nose heavy for my taste. I also made an 18", 10 tpi one with a much lighter steel back. That one is my first choice. I also have an old 12" Spear and Jackson, also with a heavy back. I think I sharpened it at 12 ppi. I use it rarely, only for very small stuff.

In other words, personal preference varies a lot,a s you can see in this thread.

[Curt Putnam]

I have all of the LV saws in question and as one sawing beginner to another I suggest staying with the DT saw. Once you are totally confident that you can cut where and how you want then you can branch out to more specific saws. IMO and YMWV

[Jim Matthews]

+1 on a larger saw, for better balance.

To muddy the water, I split my tenons
and use a chisel to get close.

A router plane gets the fit precise, and centered.

I'm forever cutting out or parallel, sawing a tenon.
(My saws are quite sharp - so it's me.)

[Chris Hachet]

I have all of the LV saws in question and as one sawing beginner to another I suggest staying with the DT saw. Once you are totally confident that you can cut where and how you want then you can branch out to more specific saws. IMO and YMWV

Actually I find just the opposite. I usually use an oversize saw, as I find the higher level of mass easeir to control.