Contributor
Just a note from an amateur hobbyist
i am completely satisfied w my MM-16....im quite sure i dont use its potential.
that said, my little beat up 12" Craftsman gets used a lot; got it free (someone threw it out, my BF fixed it), blades are cheap, etc
my point-get the big saw; u can always pick up a smaller one later if you have the room
Member
So, no proof as I thought so no discussion worth having. I would regard proof as being something along the lines of a statement from Hammer confirming the assertions or a production line or shipping photo verifiable as being taken in China. I did a search last night and read some old discussion on this subject with admissions of casting tables being made in China from the MD of Felder. That is proof of some sub contract work being done in China but it is not as some here and in other fora a production line producing thousands of complete machines which seems to be the assertion of some people. As Eric and I myself know, these days of international sourcing makes for some interesting bed fellows when it comes to large scale production.Originally Posted by ian maybury
Chris
Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening
Contributor
Very true statement ^^^^
I won't give specific numbers or percents but let me say this: There is no money in European-built bandsaws unless you sell A LOT of them. Bandsaws are unquestionably the lowest-margin item in our entire lineup. It's definitely a volume-driven market if you want to make any money at it.
Why do some vendors really push branded accesories like special fences, guides, outfeed tables, etc.? Because THAT is where the profit is. It's like going to the movies: Theatres don't make money off the movie. They make money off the popcorn and soda you buy.
Erik Loza
Minimax USA
Member
This seems to be very important to you Chris. Why don't you call your regional Felder/Hammer representative and ask about their foreign affiliations.
Get back to us and let us know what they say.
Thanks.
Contributor
Euro companies are hard to nail down as to origin of parts and even some labor. I've gotten different answers from different people in the same companies so good luck. The accountant in me says that when dealing with the lowest price point models from any company, I have to hope some things are sourced in Asia. Otherwise the cost cutting , although harder to spot, will likely be even more significant to the long term service of the machine. Companies should educate us as to their quality care supervision and monitoring rather than source of origin ( or hiding same ). Dave
[OP]
Member
I don't understand why I would need proof the bandsaw is made in Asia or not. I didn't say it is lesser quality or better quality.
These are my only personal guidelines. Anybody else can have theirs, and my goal was to have an Italian Bandsaw period. I cannot have it so I am looking to the Asian Market that can give me certain quality and dependability.
This is my hobby, I enjoy working with wood because relaxes me. My profit from woodworking is -100% (Yes minus 100 percent). It is just an expense and I decide what my budget will be.
I had a Rikon and I hated it so much because I spend more time setting up the machine than actually woodworking, it was frustrating. Yes, I saved money when I bought it, but there is not the quality that I expected. (another personal perception, that might not apply to others).
I could make it work as the finest bandsaw if I wanted, but I had to put more money and time on it. It is not worth it for me.
I am planning to move out of Texas in the immediate future, so my dilemma is to buy now and save some money before the price increase or wait until I reach my new state and save on transportation if any. That is the reason weight is important to me.
I want to have a bandsaw where I can do some woodworking and not fight the machine, probably even the Laguna 14 SUV will last me a long time or my life time.
I don't have any production schedule and I don't have timeline to finish my projects.
The difference is I don't want a headache. Will I be happy with the MM16? Probably. Will I be happy with the Hammer? Probably.
Overprice is a personal point of view. A Ferrari is overpriced for my point of view, it doesn't provide anything to me to support that many thousands of Dollars. Many rich people see that as a status thing and it is not overpriced for them. It depends on your point of view.
I might buy the MM16, but I would have to use a credit card and it is beyond the budget that I had planned to have.
I don't have any doubt that is the standard where other Bandsaw are measured and it is the golden ticket if you have it.
So, what I can get from all the discussion is that I should go with the largest, heavier Bandsaw that I can afford. Point well taken, but my question is Why?
Could you guys elaborate on that point?
So I am even thinking of the Minimax S45N which is a 18 inches with a 2.5 HP motor.
Just remember that I am a hobbyist.
Contributor
Dave, I worked on then-new Centauro bandsaw a few years ago back had a Korean upper wheel bearing. It came from the factory that way but to the best of my knowledge, Centauro is one of the few who is still doing everything in-house. That machine never had any issues and I never really get bearing complaints to this day but did think that was curious. And there was that snafu some years back where the German manufacturer we were using had gone to China for their switches and did not tell anyone on our side. The "what if we made a Chinese bandsaw for you?" question got asked to us back in the Texas days and we said "No way".
It's not that any of us had philosophical problem with Asian-built machines. It was just that we had dabbled in the "budget" bandsaw market with one of the small Mebers and then the Centauro E16 and none of us wanted to try to compete in that market.
Actually, maybe if we went to Asia, we could get a halfway decent user's manual for our MM's.
Erik Loza
Minimax USA
Last edited by Erik Loza; 12-28-2014 at 8:28 PM. Reason: typos
Member
Unless you're getting a massive discount, I'd wait until you've moved and have gotten settled in your new space before purchasing a new saw. If the saw isn't crated so it's laying down on the spine, they can be pretty awkward to move.
S45N is a great saw if you don't need to need to do a lot of very tall resawing. Very happy with mine.
Last edited by Peter Kelly; 12-28-2014 at 8:48 PM.
Contributor
Fidel, to your question of "why ", it ultimately will depend on how involved you get in the hobby. When I started I bought an ACM LT18 and though it would be enough to keep my happy forever. Just like the 8" jointer, 3 hp shaper, etc etc. My projects kept getting bigger and my interest in machinery eventually led me to a 20",30", and 36" saw. 12", then 16" jointer and hopefully when a great used porter shows up 24" jointer. My shapers are in the 7.5-10 hp range now. As your needs ( and sometimes skill ) grow, machines you were once satisfied with become increasingly mediocre. Doesn't mean you should assume you will always need more, just realize it might happen. I started with what I thought were higher end new, later realized those were just average, and migrated to high end used commercial sized machines. Time changes your goals. Dave
Member
I'm scratching my head regarding this discussion. Fidel has mentioned on several posts that wood working is a hobby, that he has narrowed his choices, that he is budget conscious. Why is he being pushed up market? Why does he need 5HP with 16" resaw capacity? I haven't used any of the saws in the original question, but I have used a few bandsaws, and for what he has indicated his present and near future use may be.....I say they all work. I'd probably go with the Hammer, because I hear their customer service is better, and I've bought from Laguna before. And Id get the biggest one your budget and shop size can afford, some weeks an extra $500 in my pocket means the world. Nough said?
On the minimax 16 thing.......its a fine saw. Ive used it right to the edge of its capacity and wished I had 75% more saw, but that would have cost my employer 100% more at least. Its the best small saw in its price range...and to translate that...bigger saws are better, spend more and you can get more saw, but you wont likely get more saw IMHO for less. So if you need that much saw, buy one. If you need more, buy bigger, need less.....you get the idea.
On other notes...if you are into heavy resaw, I'm pretty convinced at this point that the 16" saw is not the size you want. The wheels are too small, bands break prematurely due to the tight radius, not all blade manufacturers mind you, but some, and the 16" throat makes me crazy. Maybe 20 guys will jump on my back and scream "I do heavy resaw with mine", and then I'll have to ask how many BF/week of veneer are you making, we will have a stick chucking contest...there will be no winners. Suffice it to say that this mans opinion is that heavy resaw capacity for vertical machines begins at 20", below that there are compromises which most users will be more than willing to accept given the costs invoiced, its no panacea. But the suggestion that the 16" MM is the gold standard is one I reject. It is probably the best small saw available, and at a price point many can accept. Those carter guides it ships with presently......I would like to smelt them, smash them....fill a pillow case with them and chase the guy who decided that was a good idea around a small room. The old euro guides were so much better IME I can't imagine why they switched. Total knuckle buster. Do they still have the euro guide option? If you are a 1 saw shop and have to change blades frequently, I suggest you put hand on those carter guides before purchasing, learn what you are getting into. The set screw for the bottom thrust bearing guide is in a place where you almost can't adjust it without slicing your knuckles open on a resaw blade.....brilliant! Do you enjoy bleeding? Why the bleep bleep bleeping bleep isn't that set screw on the side where you can reach it rather than underneath and behind the blade where you can not? I ask because I see Eric has been here.
"A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel
Member
Why should I? I am not making the assertion so I don't have to prove anything. I suppose what gets me going is the internet is full of BS all unproven and this is just one of those stories that has been floating around to my knowledge at least five years and never in that time has anyone proven that Hammer machines are produced and assembled in China. There is a letter from the MD of Hammer floating around that explains the Felder/Hammer position and it may as well be written by a politician because a truck could be driven through the gaps. At no point in the letter does he positively refute the assertions which I find curious because I am sure they source some stuff if not from China maybe Eastern Europe. That does not mean that the machines are wholly made and assembled and exported as a complete machine from China.
A link from previous discussion on this which also went nowhere, it purports to show one single partly assembled machine in a factory somewhere.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...quot-equipment
The letter copied from another forum......
I want to clear up a couple of things that have been put forward at the FOG lately about where HAMMER machines are being produced.
Since the introduction of HAMMER in 1997 several competitors alleged that HAMMER machines are build in the Czech Republic, Bulgarian and lately also in China.
It is true that not all components are produced at our factory. For example we had to close down our foundry in 2000 because it was too small for the volume we needed and we did not have any space left to expand. However more than 95% of the components of the HAMMER range are being produced and assembled at our factory in Hall in Tyrol, Austria. And most importantly, all machines have to pass through our quality control. I have posted some picture in the Photos section that show the assembly of the HAMMER machines at our factory in Austria.
We also reserve the right to outsource HAMMER components globally in order to offer the best value possible. This was the case with the limited edition models SP3. We have outsourced several components to a well respected supplier in China. However the finals assembly and the production of the most critical components (fences, electrics, gear drives, knife system, …) was done at our factory in Austria. The outsourcing of these components allowed us to offer the SP3 at a greatly reduced price. The limited edition model SP3 was based on the construction of the A3-31 with some changes and new additions. Also we were testing the market with the new HAMMER colors.
Since then we have introduced the new HAMMER range in the new colors and other new technical features like a new sliding table, new fences and improved saw and shaper units. Due to the success of the SP3 we continue to use several outsourced components on the new A3-31. This allows us to offer the A3-31 at a bargain price. The rest of the HAMMER line continues to be manufactured entirely in Austria.
If any customer still has doubts about the HAMMER range being produced besides the FELDER and Format-4 machine at our factory in Hall in Tyrol we would like to welcome him/her to see our factory with his/her own eyes.
Best Regards
Wolfgang Geiger
Product Manager, FELDER Group
That was posted in 2012 but I have no idea of the original publishing date.
Chris
Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening
Contributor
Peter, I've had a few guys tell me they hate the Carters, had more guys tell me they view them as desireable, but the vast majority of my guys just don't seem to have an opinion one way or the other. I'm not saying that to dismiss your complaint, just saying what the feedback has been since 2012.
I've never used "guides" as a selling point for exactly that reason: You never know what the user's preferences are going to be. Yes, you can buy Euro guides from Parts Pronto and I believe Felder sells them as well.
Erik Loza
Minimax USA
Member
To Fidel's choice. It's as ever a trade off and a judgement call, and not having used the machines or being familiar with his needs it's hard to be specific. The problem we all run into though is the classic immediate budget/requirement versus is it worth stepping up a bit more to cover some longer term possibilities call.
Feedback as before seems to suggest that the N4400 delivers good bang for the buck. That while being cheaper/smaller/lighter and likely to/reportedly having significantly lower limits than the likes of the Minimax or the big Italians in terms of ability to tension blades and handle a reasonable amount of resawing it doesn't do badly. It isn't high precision work, and so says less about capability on e.g. veneers (looks promising) but this chap certainly likes to work his machines - looks like it may be green timber too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5wBG1Mp3IY It's possible judging by the squeal (= onset of vibration?) coming into the sound at times that the saw is on its limits for the set up.
This is another very interesting piece where a Swedish gent sets out to run a 1in Woodmaster CT carbide blade on his N4400 for resawing: http://www.swedishwoodworking.com/ar...n4400-bandsaw/ He succeeds with modifications, but not before discovering (along with another responder) that it's possibly taking the saw past its design limits. (look at the discussion in the replies below the main piece) Others may have experience, but thinner banded (tolerate tighter bends/smaller wheels) narrower width carbide blades like this one may be more suited to a saw at this level, stiffness and smallish wheel diameter: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/l...aw-blades.aspx
I guess the larger and heavier build sets the limit of most heavy duty (there are often cheaper/lighter models of the same size saws) Italians that much further up the price/capability scale - wider blades (but check band thickness/suitability for your wheel size), low camber wheels (suited to wider blades/resawing) more tension (less risk of wander), greater depth capability, bigger table, faster rate of cut (bigger saws tend to run the blade significantly faster - always worth a look on the spec sheet) and power to match. Against that they require a special set up/guides to handle blades much narrower than 1/2in.
Even a relatively light duty purpose built resaw makes what we regard as heavy duty (16 - 24in heavy duty Italian models) seem like a toy where resawing is concerned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2s...n8Wad7119t8BN_ - but of course a bandsaw has a much wider range of capability. (profile cutting etc)
The best advice available (which repeats what others have said) may be that it's about deciding what your current and future needs may be, and positioning accordingly on the price/capability continuum. With the knowledge in the background that much of the fussiness we hear reported about bandsaw set up tends to follow from using underspecified saws for jobs they are stretched to do . Buying used can be a good deal in this regard, but may not suit. Horses for courses and all of that.....
Last edited by ian maybury; 12-29-2014 at 8:57 AM.
Member
Wondering why you threw out the Laguna? When I read your list my first thought was the 1412. I've only seen great reviews. You might want to check out the current 'Tools & Shops' issue Of Fine Woodworking. They do a bandsaw comparison, with all the models you mention except the 4400. The Hammer 3800 in there, but it rates 'Poor' on guide post alignment. The Powermatic PM1500 is on my wish list for future upgrades. Of course, the Mini Max would be even better
Last edited by Brian LaShomb; 12-29-2014 at 10:28 AM.
[OP]
Member
I have found during my research that Laguna has good reviews and also problems. I guess the quality control is not there yet for them for the machines from the lower machines they sell.
They have consistent problems with the tables not being flat and other issues. It is like buying lottery, you don't know what you will get until too late. I don't want that headache, so I decided to remove them from my list.
I have learned in the past that I cannot trust any magazine whatsoever. I considerer those as advertisement paid for the companies. That is just my perception so nothing against any particular magazine.
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