I am ready to buy a bandsaw, I need help narrow it down my choice

[Erik Loza]

Dave K. brought up a really good point: Don't think about now, think about down the road. That's a recipe for screwing yourself and I've seen it countless times. I'm not saying this as a sales pitch for Italian saws but as a guy who has had this very conversation with prospective owners literally hundreds of times, so am pretty good at reading between the lines.

If a prospective owner tells me, "I really want this Italian saw but I just don't have the money right now or it's out of my budget", my suggestion to them is to either keep saving up for a new one or hunt for a used one to pop up on the open market. The key phrase being, "What I want". Because once that gets said, anything else is settling. That's not the same conversation as, "I only really need a 14" light duty bandsaw" and then guys trying to push someone into an industrial machine. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just saying that I have seen this exact same scenario a bizillion times.

Like they say: You're going to buy it sooner or later, anyhow. It's just a matter of much money you will spend to get there.

Photography is one of my hobbies and I own a really nice carbon fiber tripod and ball head. They were far from cheap. In fact, over $1,000 for both. They were ones everyone on the photography forums told me to buy and the conversation was a lot like this one: You can never have too sturdy a tripod or too good a head. But I spent probably $3K over the years to end up with what I wanted. Why? Because I thought I could "get by" with smaller/lighter/lesser setups over the years, so would buy one, find out what it could not do, then flip it at a loss and try a different one. All the while though, that Gitzo was the one I really wanted. But it was so darn expensive. So I just said "F-it" and bought it one day. That was more than ten years ago and this tripod has been all over the US with me. I have a ton of great prints in our house that I could not have gotten without it. Every time I pull it out of its sleeve, it's a pleasure to use. Sure it was a lot of money but I don't regret spending it for a second.

Point being, if you think you want something then you probably do and you should buy what you want because we shouldn't have to "settle" for our hobbies that are supposed to bring enjoyment to our lives. But it's also very easy to spend too much and still never be happy. At least for me. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Fidel Fernandez]

This is another very interesting piece where a Swedish gent sets out to run a 1in Woodmaster CT carbide blade on his N4400 for resawing: http://www.swedishwoodworking.com/ar...n4400-bandsaw/ He succeeds with modifications, but not before discovering (along with another responder) that it's possibly taking the saw past its design limits. (look at the discussion in the replies below the main piece) Others may have experience, but thinner banded (tolerate tighter bends/smaller wheels) narrower width carbide blades like this one may be more suited to a saw at this level, stiffness and smallish wheel diameter: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/l...aw-blades.aspx

Ian,

I read the same article, but I also notice something. It was posted on 2010 and it looks like the specs from the bandsaw has changed maybe because the launch of the N3800 and they have to make a difference between models more evident. The article mentioned that 20 mm was the blade width limit and he tried to make it work with a 25 mm (1 inch). The tension spring failed and he had to replace it.

The current spec from the N4400 from the manufacturer for the blade width is from ¼ to 1 inches. The N3800 is ¼ to ¾ inches.


One old manual found on Internet from 2010 mention the 20mm limit (¾ inches) for the N4400 but a most recent specs show this (see marked with blue Sägebandbreite) :

Hammer specs.jpg

[Erik Loza]

Fidel, I'm not commenting on any particular brand but from a design perspective, there is rarely a direct correlation between flywheel width and frame strength. It's like putting oversized tires and wheels on a truck. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean the suspension is stronger.

Again, I am reading between the lines but what I am sensing is that you think you might want to be using bigger blades some say. If that's the case, it might be worth talking to someone who uses a big blade extensively on the machines you are asking about. I'm not talking about "Cut OK for a while", I'm talking "Use it all the time, really get the most out of the blade and confidence to keep doing that for as long as you care to. Particularly if you are talking about a carbide blade.

I can tell you, for example, that even though you can physically fit a 1.0" blade on our S45N bandsaw and I could even make a few test cuts that would impress folks at a trade show or for a video, the widest blade I recommend is 3/4" and I would personally not run a carbide any wider than 1/2" on that saw. It has nothing to with the specs on paper or the build quality of the machine: The frame and tensioning assembly just aren't designed to handle that kind of tension for any length of time.

If you plan to use a 1.0" steel blade for any significant amount of cutting or any carbide blade greater than 1/2" in width, these are the machines know will do well with it. In order...

1.) Centauro
2.) ACM "HD" line
3.) Agazzani, most of the time

Again, best of luck with your search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[James Nugnes]

While i like the Laguna 14/12 I think Erik is right. I favored the 14/12 because I was willing to risk that I would be shipped one without the Quality issues reported as it was more saw than I needed as long as it was a good copy. Buying a higher end saw to protect against the possibility of getting a 14/12 with issues was not just more costly. It was a lot more costly and it appeared to me that the drop off on the other end of the 14/12 was substantial while at a considerably lower price point.

Laguna clearly knows how to make a bandsaw and knows what a flat table should look like. While they have clearly made what is for them some compromises in what is for a lack of a better term, a "Laguna Value line" I would seriously doubt they would accept shoddy quality on a long term basis. Their reputation would take the hit. Nobody sees 14/12 on the saw. They see LAGUNA in big bold letters.

Even with that there are some design issues that just seem flat silly. The fence rail from hell being the most obvious. I have not checked the length of the fence rail on the 14/12 against other Laguna fence rails. But I have to think Laguna pulled a part they were currently using elsewhere and dropped it onto the 14/12. Its length compared to the requirement is just plain ridiculous. Seeing it stick out both ends of the table as far as it does is honestly funny. What did they expect??....that it would serve dual purposes as an auxiliary handle! Either that or that big cast knuckle needed all that extra rail length just to accommodate its size. One of those bad ideas that follows another bad idea as they would have been far better served using the more diminutive guide rail hardware from the SUV if the cast knuckle is what forced the extra rail length. Whatever money they saved using that rail and knuckle system is not worth the criticism that will be leveled at them every time a salty, experienced woodworker looks at that thing hung out there in space like it is.

[Peter Kelly]

Fidel, I'm not commenting on any particular brand but from a design perspective, there is rarely a direct correlation between flywheel width and frame strength. It's like putting oversized tires and wheels on a truck. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean the suspension is stronger.

Again, I am reading between the lines but what I am sensing is that you think you might want to be using bigger blades some say. If that's the case, it might be worth talking to someone who uses a big blade extensively on the machines you are asking about. I'm not talking about "Cut OK for a while", I'm talking "Use it all the time, really get the most out of the blade and confidence to keep doing that for as long as you care to. Particularly if you are talking about a carbide blade.

I can tell you, for example, that even though you can physically fit a 1.0" blade on our S45N bandsaw and I could even make a few test cuts that would impress folks at a trade show or for a video, the widest blade I recommend is 3/4" and I would personally not run a carbide any wider than 1/2" on that saw. It has nothing to with the specs on paper or the build quality of the machine: The frame and tensioning assembly just aren't designed to handle that kind of tension for any length of time.

If you plan to use a 1.0" steel blade for any significant amount of cutting or any carbide blade greater than 1/2" in width, these are the machines know will do well with it. In order...

1.) Centauro
2.) ACM "HD" line
3.) Agazzani, most of the time

Again, best of luck with your search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Even wrestling a plain old steel 3/4" blade on an S45 is pain in the butt. 1/2" has always worked fine for me even re-sawing 10" white oak and hard maple.

[ian maybury]

Not having tested the N4400 with any blade let alone a 25mm Fidel i can't comment on the data sheet - other than to point to the links in my earlier post, and to what Erik said above. For sure it will probably accept and spin the blade, but it may actually judging by some random reports about perform better (and very well for its price point) when resawing with a narrower and thinner banded blade.

Running a 25mm blade short term as he says is one thing, but adequately tensioning and keeping it in good shape/not over bending it longer term in less than the sort of heavy duty saws he mentions may be another.

There (speaking generally) can be subtle distinctions involved. e.g. I owned a non-Italian European made bandsaw before the present very satisfactory Agazzani NRA 600 - it was billed as professional quality and lauded by all and sundry in the local mags of the time. One of the less than pleasant discoveries I made with it was that while the maker was happy to specify the availability of 300mm depth of cut/max clearance under the guides and thus leave open the possibility that an unknowing buyer such as myself might presume that this was its resaw capability (technically absolutely true - and even valuable for somebody sawing up e.g. foam insulation blocks) it's practical max resaw depth in hardwood on the recommended blade turned out to be of the order of more like 125mm. This because by this point on a high strength wood the cutting forces (proportional to the no of teeth engaged) had become high enough to start to cause all sorts of squealing and chattering (high frequency vibration in the frame and blade), plus associated blade drift - and there simply wasn't enough spring tension available to tune it out. (if there was it likely would have damaged the frame) It performed beautifully up to that point...

No amount of tuning (and I spent over a week on it, spent a lot of money on a wide variety of blade types and tried every angle i could find mention of) made any real difference. Switching to a heavy duty saw (not even one of the US market resaw specials with the extra height under the guides and an even more heavily reinforced frame) caused all the hassle and set up sensitivity to dissappear. Given a reasonable set up it really didn't care about the fine detail and sounded happy - and it cut what felt like several times faster, and delivered a much better finish.

This isn't to say that you need a heavy duty saw, but it is to say that each 'level' of saw has its own peculiar set of real world limitations - and that they (in common with most woodworking machinery) tend to perform best and most consistently when the envelope is not pushed to the absolute max. Which means that it's normally important that we have a clear idea of what we will need out of it. If you truly need capability that's at the outer limits of what's claimed for a given model of saw then it's very likely despite the financial pain best to think in terms of stepping up a grade or two of machine.

The one thing we can be absolutely sure of in a market as developed as woodworking machinery is that (while there are duds/lemons about) it's exceedingly rare to get a free lunch. That a given price point (within reason) buys a level of capability. The N4400 seems actually to deliver very well in that regard, but it seems unlikely that it wears its underwear over its tights and defies the laws of physics….

[Fidel Fernandez]

Well, I bought the Hammer (Felder) bandsaw. N4400.

There are pros and cons after the transaction cleared out.

The machine is a dream, I can only compare to my previous bandsaws (Rikon and Grizzly 14"s).

I have followed the instructions how to set the blade and there is no drift on the blade. I have Lenox and Felder saws. The carbide saw works great.

I will build a tension blade gadget to find out the real settings on the bandsaw, so far so good no problem with the tension.

Machine is built really good, it is very quiet and no vibration. I have to get used to the lower table. Setting the lower guide is a challenge because they are very low (Did I mention it has a low table?).

You need to know that the slot for the miter gauge is not American standard so none of your after the market miters will work.
There are 2 options, buy the one from Felder or make your own.

The problem is with the company. Their logistics has many things to fix.
I requested 2 quotes, a brand new one and another demo used. I needed to figure out if I wanted to save money or save headaches. I went with saving headaches.

I ordered and requested a brand new one. "I got the used one" .

I was charged less and I thought that they didn't charged me Sales Tax. I thought that because they haven't started operations yet. They will open in Feb/2015 in Texas.

Well, they charged me for the used one even I ordered and signed the contract for a new one.

I had to go back and forth to prove that I ordered the new one and that one is not the one I was expecting.

The problem was that the used one was had some issues. The guides assemblies (not the rollers) were 100% offset. Meaning the upper guide bar is not tracking perpendicular, the lower system was fully to left, so the blade bend and touched the left of the hole where the throat plate goes.
The doors are bent, the upper door has a ¼ separation at the lowest point so it is very difficult to close it, but not impossible.
There was rust internally and in the table.
The machine obviously was not used for quite some time and it was not in any shape to work. I spent a few hours without any manual how to disassemble and put back together the guide system. The manual received is pretty simple, it showed how to adjust the guides to not touch the blade, but now how they are assembled. I am pretty good to find out how mechanically things should, but I don't like to do it.
That was the reason to buy a expensive machine, because I didn't want to do it.

They acknowledge they made a mistake and they asked me to pay the difference (new one vs used one). No shipment charges because it is their mistake.
I still waiting for my brand new bandsaw to arrive, and today is Jan 27 2015.

They allowed me to keep the bandsaw until they deliver the new one, so that is a good thing.

The sales guy told me there were a price increase on January first, that obviously was a sales pitch. It didn't happen. The problem is I am thinking to change my tools to european type of machines, but I will have a hard time going their direction again.
I consider that a lie and poor customer service.
I have never had a followed up call after the purchase so they don't care to maintain a happy customer base. They only care to sale the machines and move on.
I ordered a reducer from 120mm to 100mm (4 inches) for the dust extraction. It has not shipped yet and it is in stock.

[mreza Salav]

It really really bugs me why some companies with good products drop the ball when it comes to taking care of the customer. Mistakes can always happen with any company and any person but (not piling on any particular brand) there are brands that you hear more often than others about bad customer service.
Hopefully they take care of you at the end properly.

[John Sanford]

The sales guy told me there were a price increase on January first, that obviously was a sales pitch. It didn't happen. The problem is I am thinking to change my tools to european type of machines, but I will have a hard time going their direction again.
I consider that a lie and poor customer service.

IIRC, Felder, like quite a few companies, adjust their prices with the new year. In recent years, prices have generally gone up on European goods imported to the US. However, changes in transportation costs (falling oil costs) and currency exchange rate changes may have resulted in Felder not increasing the price in question, a decision that may have been made at the last moment, or not communicated to Felder USA until late. As a result, characterizing the pricing matter as a "lie" may be unfair. For the rest of the issues, well, it definitely sounds like Felder/Hammer USA dropped the ball, then let it roll out into the street where it was flattened by a passing skateboarder.

[Keith Outten]

Its my understanding that Felder is in the process of correcting the problems for Fidel.
Lets give them a chance to resolve problems with their customer before this conversation continues.