North American vs Euro TS Fences and Safety

[Peter Aeschliman]

So, my understanding is that europeans like to pull their aluminum extruded fences forward (toward the operator), such that the end of the fence is only just past the gullets of the cutting end of the blade.

Like this:



My understanding is that this dramatically reduces the possibility of kickback because there is no "pinch zone" toward the back of the blade.

To those of you who have euro saws, how "in control" of the workpiece do you feel as you approach the end of the cut when your fence is in this position? Seems to me you only have an inch max of contact with the fence toward the end of the cut. How is this accurate or safe? It seems to me like the workpiece could teeter on the fence as you finish the cut. Doesn't this cause a taper at the end of the workpiece?

My sawstop PCS has a riving knife, etc. But I'm considering swapping the fence out for a verysupercooltools fence and cutting the aluminum extrusion down so that it is no longer than the front gullet of my 10" blade's when at a reasonably low height setting... that is if it is safer and more accurate. But I'm stuck on this point...

Is there any case when you would want more fence length after the cut?

Note, I already have an excalibur sliding table for safe cross-cuts.

[David Kumm]

Take a look at Jack Forsberg's Wadkin PK videos to see a short fence in action. I added a similar extrusion on my WhitneyDSCN2889.jpgDSCN2890.jpg The idea used on British saws was to keep the fence back aligned with the gullets on the front of the blade. The fence was curved to the bottom to mimic the blade. Works pretty well when you get used to the idea. I almost always move the fence forward when ripping long material. When ripping short pieces using the Grrippers seen in the pic ( several so i don't need to adjust them ) I've found that the fence in the traditional position works better for me as the design of the Grriper works best when you can push both sides of the cut against the fence until beyond the blade. Sliders all use the adjustable fence but mainly as a guide when crosscutting. Euro sliders are meant to rip from the sliding table side so the fence is only to set the position of the stock. Dave

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Euro sliders are meant to rip from the sliding table side so the fence is only to set the position of the stock. Dave

That's how I use mine. Because no one told me not to, I've ripped without the slider with the fence back, and it works. It can feel a little wobbly towards the end of the cut if the board is long. Great for slider work, but for free hand I prefer the fence way past the blade like normal American saws. One of the silly little reasons I like it pulled back for the slider work, is that it makes cutoffs easy to "park" when ripping multiples. No reaching way over the blade to grab one about to fall off the table, they parallel Park on their own usually.

[ian maybury]

These are just personal impressions on issues on i've run into since starting to use an 8ft Hammer slider, and prior to that a Robland combo. - the machines we get here (ireland) are essentially to EU standards and not in the US format - although there is some older US style stuff about.

This piece by Bob Lang summarises the differences in approach pretty nicely - although as above the UK regs are to my mind more Euro than British in origin: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...ink-were-crazy

There's no easy answers i think. A short set fence avoids work being nipped between the upwards moving rear teeth and the fence - which is where the most frequent risk of kickback arises. Against that it for sure can leave work a little unsupported at times - but the resulting wobble while not good for the work is likely to be against the downwards moving teeth and hence is unlikely to throw it. Larger Euro saws (but not many smaller/cheaper more DIY ones - see the pic in Bob's piece - the small short fences on budget saws can be a PIA as they are usually flimsy as hell too) are fitted with a fence long enough to be extended well past the blade when needed http://www.ukhammer.co.uk/products_f...6&region=gb-en - so there is possibly a tacit admission of some sort in there that it's required for some cuts.

Ripping off a long fence has the advantage that it's a simple one step set up - and due to the layout it delivers a parallel cut/constant width piece every time even if the fence is very slightly misaligned. It seems like the high risk levels arise with misaligned fences, flexible fences/mountings and/or unthinking work practices.

Ripping off a slider requires a lot more set up, and the work has to be set accurately parallel to the line of travel of the slider using whatever means of measurement/accessory (parallel bars, stop rules or whatever) if a constant width piece is to be delivered. Against that it's normally a totally relaxed and very safe procedure - with the advantage that it'll produce a straight cut determined by the line of travel of the slider. There's a learning curve too - so all in all the extra safety has a price tag attached.

It seems like there's issues to be worked around when ripping very narrow pieces on either set up - the fence/blade gap when ripping off the fence, and issues of holding work down and dealing with the otherwise minor height difference between the slider and the table, and the strip of table between the slider and the blade in the latter case.

Riving knives seem to work well and are cost effective, but riving knife mounted top guards while great most of the time can end up fouling cross cut or rip fences on certain close to fence cuts depending on set up and probably generate temptation to remove them. They don't much like heavy dust hoses etc either. Fancier industrial quality saws are generally fitted with overhead mounted top guards, e.g. http://www.ukfelder.co.uk/gb-en/prod...c98dc03df70393 - the Suva top guard shown in the UK HSE link from Bob's piece is also of this type.

Slotting with a dado or similar is the classic scenario where there's little option but to remove a riving knife and associated knife mounted top guard - but not an overhead mounted guard. Euro saws used for slotting/dado cutting must have a proper spindle prep (long enough arbour, non loosening when braking), and also be equipped with a brake stopping the spindle (with a potentially heavy cutter) within 10sec - and its not officially acceptable to remove the top guard. Despite the common perception in the UK dado and slotting cutters seem of themselves to be perfectly acceptable there and in Europe - it's just that the saw has to be appropriately set up so that the secondary requirements are met when the cutter is fitted...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a Euro saw, if you remember the Delta Unifence, it was of this design also.

Having the fence stop at the blade gullet does reduce the risk of binding, and it increases the length of fence before the cut point for improved support.

Having it end just after the cut may seem weird however it does work well.

The Euro fences also have a low position for ripping narrow strips or bevels.

Once the wood is cut, the fence can only introduce problems after that, it certainly isn't going to put wood back into a poor cut.

For sheet goods I put the fence partway, once again to maximise my infeed support and guidance.

I wouldn't cut the fence, it looks like the one you're considering provides the infinite adjustabily and three positions of the Euro style fence..............Rod.

[Kevin Jenness]

I use a sliding table saw with a euro fence every day at work. For work that can be safely held on the sliding carriage for ripping or crosscutting, the fence stops before the blade, and the workpiece or offcut to the blade's right drops free. Since it can't get trapped between fence and blade, there is no risk of kickback. For pieces that are too narrow to ride on the slider, I put the fence forward either halfway along the blade, or well past it. For rough ripping lumber that may bow or pinch in the cut, the fence is in the intermediate position (or, more often, I use the bandsaw). For better control of sheet goods or lumber that is close to final dimension, the fence usually extends past the blade. For example, ripping a sheet of plywood into 12" rips, the first cut would be a "dust cut" to straighten the factory edge. The next 3 cuts the fence is pulled back and acts as a gauge for the slider. The fourth piece is ripped as on a cabinet saw, with the fence extended past the blade. I find that for large pieces in this situation having the fence extended past the blade gives better control and keeps the piece from twisting at the end of the cut, particularly as I am typically leaning over the carriage and find it harder to get my force in line with the fence than if I were using a cabinet saw with my position farther to the right. For very wide pieces I may move around to the right side of the carriage in order to more easily push in line with the fence (although in principle it is safer to stay to the left of the carriage.).

Ripping with the slider and the fence requires the fence to be accurately aligned with the slider travel (and the slider with the blade) to get good results. Accurate ripping on the slider without the fence, as Ian says, requires careful setup, whether measuring off the table edge or using a parallel ripping guide. We used to have a Griggio with one of those parallel guide, but it was fussy to get it and the crosscut stop on the fence coordinated- not very efficient for normal use in a busy shop.

The riving knife is perhaps the most important safety feature in using a slider, other than the one on your shoulders. The overhead guard stays on except for very narrow cuts, but it is mostly a sawdust deflector and a reminder not to stick your fingers in there.

In my home shop, I replaced my cabinet saw with a full scale slider, and would never go back, but if I had room I would still have a cabinet saw for ripping lumber- leaning over the slider to rip narrow pieces against the fence is a little awkward. Ideally the cabinet saw would have a euro fence, but you can clamp an auxiliary fence to the main one to mimic the functions of the Euro fence.

[David Kumm]

Short vs long fence on a tradition saw is a debate a lot like bandsaw tensioning. huge camps on both sides. Europeans liked the short fence design, US used a longer fence. If you want to change your pcs, I would attach an extrusion that you can loosen and move forward and back. don't get committed to just a short fence if you don't like the long one 100% of the time. It's fairly easy to drill and tap a bar to attach to the fence for the extrusion to fit. My extrusion is made to fit a unifence and is available online for about $90. Dave

[Erik Loza]

+1 for Dave's comments ^^^^^

A lot of guys (in my experience...) who are either in the research phase or just got their machines still try to treat it like a cabinet saw, with the whole "I'm going to do it all with the rip fence" mindset. It really depends on what you do with the machine. If you bought the slider for the right reasons (squaring sheet goods), then you can pull the rip fence extrusion back like that photo. In fact, we even have a shorty rip fence extrusion, that is half-length, that lives on the machine a good amount of the time.

The issue I see guys run into is trying to set up their machines so that the rip fence and slide somehow will work in conjuction with each other, which is recipe for huge headaches. The slider needs to be treated as two different machines: The slider/crosscut fence side and and then the rip fence side, each calibrated to the sawblade rather than each other. Hope this makes sense.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter Aeschliman]

Thanks all. I think I get it. How about a compromise, where the end of the fence is aligned to the top dead center of the blade? Or is that not much different than a long fence?

[David Kumm]

Peter, since you are running a traditional saw rather than a slider, whether the fence ends just behind the gullets or half way, it is still a short fence. Just a matter of how far your hand extends beyond the teeth before shifting the fence side of the cut away from the blade. if your fence is set correctly parallel to the blade, you use a riving knife, and the stock is kiln dried, the long fence works just fine. Construction lumber and pressure treated benefit from a short fence or better yet, the bandsaw. Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter, since you are running a traditional saw rather than a slider, whether the fence ends just behind the gullets or half way, it is still a short fence. Just a matter of how far your hand extends beyond the teeth before shifting the fence side of the cut away from the blade. if your fence is set correctly parallel to the blade, you use a riving knife, and the stock is kiln dried, the long fence works just fine. Construction lumber and pressure treated benefit from a short fence or better yet, the bandsaw. Dave

Got it. In other words, I'm over-thinking it/ if it ain't broke, don't fix it, etc.

Good feedback. I definitely never do the "risker" rip cuts with un-milled, properly dried stock. I did have one occasion where the kerf in a kiln-dried, perfectly square workpiece closed up on my riving knife (thank god for riving knives) during a rip cut. Apparently the workpiece had lots of tension in it! I had to shut the saw down with my left knee, lower the blade, and pull pretty hard to unseat it from my riving knife.

So there are rare cases where I do worry about kickback even when I've done everything else right. But the riving knife saved me, so maybe that's all I need!

[David Kumm]

Peter, also keep in mind the short fence design was generally used on bigger blades than your 10". My short fence saws run 14-18" blades. Whole different deal running a board entirely past an 18" blade. Takes a long reach and prayer is usually involved. Dave

[Grant Wilkinson]

I follow David's approach. I didn't cut my long fence. I merely attached a "short fence" to it. The short fence ends just beyond the gullet on the blade. It does seem a little strange at first as you lose the support for the piece just behind the front of the blade. However, since the blade is no longer cutting at that point, there is no need for that support.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter, also keep in mind the short fence design was generally used on bigger blades than your 10". My short fence saws run 14-18" blades. Whole different deal running a board entirely past an 18" blade. Takes a long reach and prayer is usually involved. Dave

Yeah, that sounds pretty terrifying.

I follow David's approach. I didn't cut my long fence. I merely attached a "short fence" to it. The short fence ends just beyond the gullet on the blade. It does seem a little strange at first as you lose the support for the piece just behind the front of the blade. However, since the blade is no longer cutting at that point, there is no need for that support.

The thing I still don't get- when you only have a few more inches left in your cut, it really doesn't seem like the workpiece would be adequately supported because it only has a few inches of contact on the fence. If your workpiece rotates to the right a little during those last few inches, you're going to get a taper at the end of your workpiece. Based on Ian's post above, it sounds to me like you sacrifice some accuracy in favor of safety, and thus you may have to cut the last few inches of the workpiece off after your rip cut, but you probably won't have any kickback... pick your poison so to speak.

Does that match your experience?

[mreza Salav]

A unifence has the same features, you can move it forward or backward, and can have a tall/short fence (when ripping thin strips). I have a ICS sawstop (with their fence) and a (temporary) Delta saw with unifence (for my job site). I like the idea of tall/short unifence but I haven't felt comfortable enough with moving the fence forward; so I still use it in full table depth position.