Sawing question

[Curtis Niedermier]

When you start the saw cut to saw a dovetail, do you tip the toe up and start on the near corner or do you tip the handle up and start on the far corner of the board?

Just curious what works for everyone else.

[Jim Koepke]

My sawing on dovetails has changed of late. My current practice is to slightly tilt the saw with the handle up to start on the far corner. I am also eyeing the lines to keep the saw tilted or square depending on whether it is tails or pins being cut.

The saw is then leveled before even a 1/16" depth is reached to extend the cut across the work piece. Then the saw is tilted back and the cut is continued all the way along the layout line while maintaining the original depth of cut on the far side. When the cut is almost to the full depth the saw is tilted back forward to finish the far side.

The theory is the cut on the close side will work as a guide in cutting the far side. So far this technique has my dovetails working a lot better.

My memory fails at who was the source of this technique or even if it was here at SMC or another site. It is likely almost as old as saws and dovetails themselves.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I've taken to carving a small "V" at the far corner where I want to start.

It's a place for the saw to track, at the beginning.
I've also begun to "gang" cut tails, for symmetry.

I cut straighter (perpendicular) to the reference face
when there are two boards clamped together.

I can't speak for others, but I cut dovetails with my saw
at roughly chest height. For most other sawcuts,
I keep the saw between belt and knee height.

One last thing - bright lighting makes a huge difference
in how straight I keep my saws.

I can't say why, but it matters.

[Tom M King]

I start on the side that I can see.

[Brian Holcombe]

I start on the near side.

The thing that has had the greatest improvement on my sawing has been using a sight to make sure I'm sawing perpendicular to the work and making sure that my wrist, elbow and shoulder are all lined up. It seemed more awkward at first but it's improved my sawing a ton.

the sight can be the side of your bench or anything which is also perpendicular to the work, it helps me to see if I am not lined up because the sawing motion will not be straight like a piston if it isn't lined up. The saw will move in a curved line if that is the case and sawing will be more difficult and less accurate.

[Jim Koepke]

It seemed more awkward at first but it's improved my sawing a ton.

Changing old habits often feels awkward.

For me it is interesting to read threads on technique like this one. Usually there may be some small piece of information turning on a light to help the work process flow smoother.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

When you start the saw cut to saw a dovetail, do you tip the toe up and start on the near corner or do you tip the handle up and start on the far corner of the board?

Just curious what works for everyone else.

I have always found it easier to tip the saw handle down and to start on the far side of the cut. What I like about this method is that I can lay the toothline on the cut line, raise the handle slightly and start the cut, then progressively adjust for the cut. I have found that to start on the far side and tipping the handle up, as I picture it taking a more vertical cut on the far side, creates a lot of tooth catching and difficult starting. On the other hand, starting on the near side, with the handle tipped down, seems to be quite uncomfortable - of course what I'm picturing is trying to cut upward and that doesn't seem like appropriate way to cut. I guess whatever work for you is fine.

[Brian Holcombe]

Very true, I was reading through Desmond King's book on making Shoji and it was an 'aha' moment. I have been determined as of late to really improve my skill sets and completely revisit sawing, sharpening, freehand chisel work and plane tuning and it's been very worthwhile.

[Shawn Pixley]

Jim, I am with you on the lighting. I've come to the conclusion I need to upgrde the lighting in the garage / shop. Both in brightness but also in evenness.

[Shawn Pixley]

I start the cut on the near side (tip handle down) and then level out. I was taught that way when I was kid. Reading the other posts though, I may try starting at the far side.

[Doug Bowman]

My sawing on dovetails has changed of late. My current practice is to slightly tilt the saw with the handle up to start on the far corner. I am also eyeing the lines to keep the saw tilted or square depending on whether it is tails or pins being cut.

The saw is then leveled before even a 1/16" depth is reached to extend the cut across the work piece. Then the saw is tilted back and the cut is continued all the way along the layout line while maintaining the original depth of cut on the far side. When the cut is almost to the full depth the saw is tilted back forward to finish the far side.

The theory is the cut on the close side will work as a guide in cutting the far side. So far this technique has my dovetails working a lot better.

My memory fails at who was the source of this technique or even if it was here at SMC or another site. It is likely almost as old as saws and dovetails themselves.

jtk

Sounds like an interesting technique - I will have to give that a try and report back

[Ron Bontz]

Hmmm. When I test my saws I start with the saw flat on the edge and a light touch. I will sometimes cut a little down one side tracking the line then the other to create a guide initially. ( I am a lousy sawyer ) As far as the lighting is concerned: we all loose the ability of our eyes to adjust to subtle changes in lighting with age. The pupils and muscles do not dilate and constrict with the sensitivity they once did. SO much for night vision and those blasted people who drive with their brights on. I have been upgrading the lighting in my little shop to those T5 lights found at one of the borgs. Halogens burn out too quickly and put out too much heat in the summer months. Not to mention the amperage they pull. The T5s put out a large amount of light, but are costly to buy. And nothing replaces a nice sunny day.

[Mike Henderson]

I do both - start on the near side or on the back side - depending on how high the wood is in my vise, and how I'm feeling. I haven't seen much difference in the two techniques, at least for me.

I used to teach starting on the near side but now tend to teach starting on the back side. But that's because the pieces of wood that students work with are pretty short so they can tip the handle up and not be awkward. But I usually show them both methods and let them use whatever they feel comfortable with.

Mike

[Curtis Niedermier]

Since I started the thread, I figured I'd share my technique, if anyone cares to read about it. I did a little experimentation this weekend with different techniques mentioned in this thread, and it seems like the way I've been doing it is still the best way for me. I appreciate everyone sharing their techniques. The way I'm doing it leaves the cleanest cut with my bench and saw setup, and I can keep my cut square across the edge of the board most consistently this way. It's interesting how much we can vary techniques to get similar results.

I start on the far corner, but tip the saw as little as needed - sometimes the teeth drag across the width of the end grain because I drop just a hair too far. Then I use just a few light cuts as the heel descends to take that initial start all the way across the end grain - Schwarz calls this "nibbling" I think. The key for me is trying to keep the cut as square as possible across the end grain. Essentially I create a very, very shallow kerf that, I hope, is perfectly square. From there, I let er rip. I tend to keep the tooth line pretty much horizontal as it descends in the cut. It works pretty good for me.

One other thing I started doing is actually something I stopped doing: laying out the slope of the tails. I saw tails first, and I've decided that laying out the slope just adds time. And if I have a pencil line to follow as I saw, in the event I'd start the saw off the line, I had a tendency to try and steer back to it. Steering just led to a crooked cut, which created a gap in the finished product.

Now, I mark out the tails on the end grain only and draw a square line across. Then I tilt the saw to ballpark the slope of the tails. Once I start the cut square on the end grain, I let the saw cut on its own so that the cut is always straight, even if the angle varies slightly.

When I saw pins, I make sure my end-grain start/kerf is on the knife line that I trace and then I ballpark the straight-down cut. I don't layout on the face grain for that process either, but I do make sure the board is straight up in my vise.

Hopefully that makes sense and doesn't ramble too much.

The only exception to this would be if I wanted very specific tail angles/slopes, or if I was doing some type of decorative dovetails - but I've never bothered with either before, so I'm sticking with not laying out dovetail slopes for now.

[Jim Koepke]

Working on a couple of dovetail joints today it seemed a good idea to take some pictures and share some technique.

This method seems to be working for me. Others are sure to find different ways working better for them. That is what makes the world go around.

To get my work up a little higher a faux Moxon vise was made:

Make Shift Moxon.jpg

The two side panels were held in the vise and a small block was inserted in the end opposite the work piece to counteract any racking. A speed clamp was added for stability.

The pins were marked from the tails. My thumb is used to guide the saw next to the knifed line, inside the waste area. Note the saw is cutting from the outside of the piece working inward. It took me awhile to get the hang of holding the saw lightly and starting a cut with a push stroke. It has improved my sawing.

Starting the Cut.jpg

Once a shallow kerf is established across the end grain the saw is tilted back:

Tilting Saw.jpg

The depth isn't increased on the far side until the saw has cut to the depth line:

Sawing to the Line.jpg

Then the saw is slowly tilted back to cut all the way across while the heel stays in the part already cut as a guide.

My tails are definitely not the best. In pine lately they have been tight enough to have just the pitch in the pine hold the joints together on a few projects made when it is too cold to glue in the shop.

jtk