Do I have the right Shapton stones?

[Kevin Sweet]

Bit of a newbie here when it comes to sharpening. I have been getting by with the M.Power PSS system the past few years, but have been wanting step it to the next level. For Christmas I asked for and received the Shapton 2000 and 5000 ceramic stones along with the MKII honing guide. Still have an Amazon gift card to put toward the Shapton 8000. I chose to go the Shapton route after watching the Wood Whisperer and after doing some digging online I felt like I couldn't go wrong with these.
I just realized that that on the WW Marc went from 1000 to 5000, and that I put the 2000 on my Christmas list instead of the 1000. Now my question to you all is can I go 2000 to 5000 or do I need to start with a coarser stone?
Also, what would you recommend for flattening the back of my chisels and keeping the Shaptons flat? I looked into the DMT lapping plate but it's not cheap (unless you compare it to the Shapton one). Any recommendations? Worst case I will get the DMT, but by the time I am done I will have about 5x as much invested in my sharpening system than I will have in the actual tools that need to be sharpened.
I appreciate any recommendations or comments.

[David Weaver]

Atoma 400 (toolsfromjapan.com is far and away the cheapest), you can get a rubber stand if you want, but you don't need to.

you can start with the 2k. 1K would be better, and if you felt like adding it (IIRC, it's got particles twice as large as the 2k) you could do that from toolsfromjapan for probably $35 or $40.

I used shaptons for several years, and I am somewhat fanatical about sharpening stones (as a point of fascination, not that it matters that much about what types of stones you use), and though I no longer have them, I remember the numbers as follows:

Shapton 1k - about 15 micron abrasive
2k - about 7
5k - about 3 micron
8k about 2
12k cream - 1.2 (1.23?)
15k pro (marketed in US) -0.98

If you're using a grinder of some sort, you can start with the 2k without too much issue. The 5k is a transitional stone, it will seem awfully close to the 8k because it is. You could get the cream instead of the 8k and be fine. For years, I used the 1k pro and 15k pro, and nothing between, and modify sharpening technique as needed to do that (the final bevel is ever so slightly steeper than the one before).

If the 5k is not fine enough, then pick your poison (the cream is a good choice), if the 2k seems too slow but you like the idea of using shaptons, get the 1k.

Find something to glue them to. I know derek cut pieces of glass and used that, and I previously glued mine to I kingwood (I just had it, I wouldn't suggest buying it, it's expensive), or cocobolo - whatever I could find that would be stable in water. Anything quartered would be OK.

Definitely the atoma to flatten them.

Shipping takes a little while from Japan, but the deal price makes it worth the wait.

[Mateo Panzica]

I flatten my Shaptons with 220 Norton sandpaper adhered to a cheap 9x12 granite plate. Grizzly (among others) sells pates for about $30. Works for me.

[David Wong]

For re-sharpening a chisel or plane iron, the shapton 2K is my most used first stone. If I have a nick to repair, I'll often use a King 800 or coarser. Only then will I usually use a 1K to get rid of coarser scratches. I use a shapton 5K, but I find it is not the best for my japanese blades. Loads up easily on the soft iron lamination. If you are getting a finer stone, I would take a jump to something over 10K. A nice feature of the shapton is that they are hard and flat. I use them for polishing blade backs. They also work well with the MkII jig.

[George Beck]

I start with the Shapton 2000 then 5000 then 15,000 pro stones. The 1000 shapton is a fairly aggressive 1000. I like the hardness of the 2000 grit stone and I findd it stays pretty flat. After burning up a couple of Shapton diamond plates I use an Atoma 400. The Shapton lapping plates are excellent but don't hold up as well as I think they should for the price. I recently saw a video by Harrelson where he "reconditions and cleans a diamond plate which I might try. Has anyone else tried this?

George

[David Weaver]

barkeepers friend and a stiff brush (can be anything, metal or plastic). If you have nickel plate loss and loss of diamonds, nothing will help. If you have what looks like a dark diamond hone and it looks like the plating is gone, it might not be plate loss, though (it could be dark caked on stone or metal swarf) - scouring powder of some sort will tell you if it is.

I've never had to do any of that on an atoma, though.

[john zulu]

I generally use the 2k,5k and end with 8k for general sharpening. The blade is dull not chip or nick. If the blade was nick I would drop to 1k. For chips I would use 120 or the belt sander. Way too much material to remove
when the chip is too big with whetstone.

[ian maybury]

Another here using Shapton professionals/the Veritas Mk2 guide/a 400g Atoma plate on 01, A2 and Japanese white steel - started sharpening more seriously last year with lots of help from around here.

120 for rougher work, then 1,000, 2,000 (probably gilding the lily), 5,000 and 12,000 for honing and polishing. The 2,000 and 5,000 are notably different in feel - harder matrix. The 120 doesn't cut as much faster as the much coarser grit might suggest - i've been using an 80 or 150 grit diamond lapidary disc on a Worksharp where more metal needs to be removed. It works very well (but requires care/precision in use so as not to round off/overheat corners or the like) for back flattening or re-facing a bevel - this latter can be very slow work on waterstones except in the case of e.g. Veritas plane blades which come very flat.

Can't speak too highly of the above combination - follow the broad sharpening and honing technique (Charlesworth or Lie Nielsen - lots on YouTube) and you can't with good discipline (especially in terms of regular stone flattening) really go wrong.

We've had a fair amount of discussion of the ins and outs of using the Veritas honing guide (see threads) - especially when/when not to use the camber versus the cylindrical roller. It's very comfortable and nice to use, but there are a few quirks to watch out for depending on exactly what you are doing...

[David Wong]

barkeepers friend and a stiff brush (can be anything, metal or plastic). If you have nickel plate loss and loss of diamonds, nothing will help. If you have what looks like a dark diamond hone and it looks like the plating is gone, it might not be plate loss, though (it could be dark caked on stone or metal swarf) - scouring powder of some sort will tell you if it is.

I have used a little Bar Keepers Friend and a Scotch Brite "Dobie" pad, to clean stains and caked on gunk off my Atoma. Leaves a nice bright shinny surface. YMMV...

[Prashun Patel]

David Weaver guided me to get a 1000 and 8000. I have been happy with them. He's able to get a great edge going from 1000 to 8000 but in my hands, my blades get polished easier if I use a middle stone (currently a King 4000).

I also have a coarse EZE lapping plate from Amzn for flattening. It's worked well for me and is an economical alternative to the Atoma.

[George Beck]

Here is where to find the video on refurbishing diamond plates. I was just curious. http://www.shapton.com/#!tutorials/cuy0

[Kevin Sweet]

I appreciate all the great feedback. For now I think I will stick with the 2000 and get the 1000 later if needed. Is seems like the Atoma 400 wins as the most recommended on this thread, so I may give it a try.
Are guys using the US or Japanese versions? And is there really a difference between the two (other than the Japanese ones seem to be at a lower price point)?

At this point all I have been sharpening is a basic set of WoodRiver chisels and their block plane, but I have a culminated a few older Stanley and Sargent planes that I would like to get put to use (but I will save those questions for later).

[ian maybury]

i seem to find Kevin that for some reason the 1,000 Shapton seem to cut quite a bit faster than the 2,000. Whether this is likely to matter for you may depend on how you plan to sharpen. It's potentially quite significant when single bevel sharpening Japanese chisels (that's honing and polishing the entire bevel as one surface), but much less so if you use a micro bevel over a hollow ground primary bevel as is the norm. The latter only requires removing metal over a very narrow strip behind the edge, so a slower cut probably won't be a big deal. (only a few extra strokes on the stone)

Back flattening is another potentially very variable feast depending on the type and condition of your chisels or plane blades. Very high quality plane blades like those from Veritas come with the backs ready lapped, and the primary bevel accurately ground on - a few minutes on a 1,000 grit or similar waterstone saw the several that i have cut back to a uniform surface all over the back that's ready to move on to the next finer grit.

Significantly out of flat backs - especially on wider blades like planes and lacking the hollowed back of Japanese chisels can take a lot of work or a much faster cutting method to get properly flat. It may well be a non issue for you if your backs are very flat - e.g. Veritas or other very accurately finished plane irons or chisels as above.

It's possible to go to a very coarse waterstone, but they can still feel very slow indeed - I ended up using as others here 80 or 150 grit diamond lapidary discs off the accessory platform on the top of a Worksharp (any similar speed disc machine could probably be used, but the disc must be perfectly flat) to flatten the quite heavily curved backs on a particular set of Japanese chisels. (this isn't the case with all Japanese chisels/nor can i speak for the traditional carborundum on steel method they use for faster metal removal) It needs great care to prevent rounding a corner/dubbing the edge (it's all in how you lower the tool on the disc - but lots of harm could be done in seconds), and it's best to cut only for a few seconds at a time and cool in water between cuts to avoid the risk of overheating - but it works just fine since the surface speed of the disc is quite low and the glass disc is dead flat.

Dry grinding on a cool running wheel (as frequently described by David & Co) is the go to/stock method for cutting/re-cutting hollow ground bevels before honing a micro bevel. If however you want to do flat bevels (e.g. Japanese chisels) they can likewise be cleaned up as above on the WS - i use the Veritas Mk 2 guide on the work platform. It's possible then to switch to the waterstones without removing the chisel or the plane from the guide if you want to to hone single bevel - but the top work surface must be set very accurately flush with the surface of the WS disc for it to work. i.e. if the bevel cut on the WorkSharp and waterstone honing angles match exactly then the bevel will clean up in minutes on a 1,000 grit waterstone, but if not then a lot of work is needed.

Wide/large area/thick blades like plane irons or wide Western chisels that are further out of flat, or needing re-angling of the bevel may require even more cutting ability than the still relatively slow WorkSharp has available. Derek Cohen discusses techniques using coarse aluminium oxide paper stuck down on a flat surface (for back flattening) or a belt sander (for cutting flat bevels) on his website, while others have posted pictures of their versions here too. Professional surface grinding is possibly the last resort for really bad backs.

Faster powered methods are tempting in these situations, but great care is needed (with e.g. disc sanders, belt sanders running 80 grit aluminium oxide) - they can overheat and draw the temper from an edge in moments. They very likely will do more harm than good if used for back flattening as the resulting surface is unlikely to be accurately flat...

[Kent A Bathurst]

............I am somewhat fanatical about sharpening stones ...............

Mouthful of coffee all over the monitor with that newsflash.

Please understand - David is a wealth of knowledge and experience - he seems to have tried and objectively evaluated all legit equipment and methods, and has been a great help to me [and, no doubt, others] via PM on this topic. A "good guy". Gratitude don't get it.

But still.............had to clean off the monitor on that one, David.

[Tom Vanzant]

60-grit SC is probably a bit coarse for that Kent.