Chisel Hoops in a heated shop

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,

Thank you for elaborating on points missing from our friend’s texts.
I see.


See . . .
now there . . . with all due respect . . . there you are scaring me.
A very low oven around 200 ° F would chase the moisture out of the handle and not in the least harm the blade. I suppose I am envisioning a gas oven with an accurate enough thermometer sitting in it for verification.
or
more likely the end of the handle near the wood stove and the chisel end pointing away into the room.


ha, ha, take this with humor :
I think you have answered your question there.
We will blame the publisher and say that perhaps it was cut out for brevity so the tome did not become a weighty tome.

weighty tome
I may have set a personal record here today . . .
“weighty tome” may be the nerdiest, ickiest, thing I have ever written. The sound of it even creeps me out. Yucky, sticky.

. . . anyway Stan
Sounds like we agree on many things and you have given the OP exactly what he needs to know to SOLVE his problem.
I am sure I will leave the epoxy on the chisels thing alone.
In all seriousness I don’t think I can improve on what you have described; after all, those guys have been perfecting their methods for a thousand years and more.

PS:

tell Shimamura san, from me, to stop scowling and being so grumpy.
WE NEED HIS HELP and expertise.

Ohiogozamas
(probably spelled wrong but that is one of the few Japanese words I know)

humbly but with a hint of Zen humor
winton

Even 160 degrees can draw temper. Check it out.

I assumed you were talking about removing the handle from the blade. But sticking the handle close to the heat source, and the blade into the room should work.

I think the Odate article I recall was in Fine woodworking. He did an article on making shoji screens.

Unfortunately, Shimamura san passed away some time ago. A great blacksmith was lost to us. He was a bit grumpy at times, but suffering fools can be trying, and I was certainly then, (and I suppose still am) a fool.

Oyasumi nasai.

Stan

[Winton Applegate]

Stan,

Even 160 degrees can draw temper. Check it out.

You know . . .
I have said here in the Neander that 200°F can draw temper but was told I was full of beans.
I recall reading that a plane blade that was considered to be too hard could be put on a tin roof on a very hot day and that would be enough to mellow it.
So I have been checking it out all along but am still unsure. There are modern temper color charts but . . . . .

I think the Odate article I recall was in Fine woodworking. He did an article on making shoji screens.

I have that one.
Cool
I will reread it.
Thank you.

Unfortunately, Shimamura san passed away some time ago. A great blacksmith was lost to us. He was a bit grumpy at times, but suffering fools can be trying

After I left my post I was afraid that I had said something stupid and that might be the case. Forgive me.

(and I suppose still am) a fool.

hey . . . we're ALL bozos on THIS bus.
I don't know who said that but '60's some where.

Oyasumi nasai.

Good night to you as well Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,

I appreciate this insight. Can I trouble you to post a photo of a properly installed hoop. I know it must seem very basic, but I would like to see how you proceed in deforming the corners of the handle's end.

I took the oil method, but I'm certainly willing to move onto better methods if it is not a good approach.

Thank you,

BRIAN

Here are some pic and a link I copied from the internet.

Notice how the hoop is radiuses in the sketch below. Very important.

In the pic below, notice how the handle is shaved so the hoop fits and there is a smooth transition to keep the hoop from digging into the handle and splitting it. That assumes the handle is bigger than the hoop, which is often the case. If you set up your handles and hoops this way, they will last many many years of hard use.

In the blog, notice how he works the ferrule.

There is more that could be explained, and I hoper to have a blog up before too many months go by that explains things in more detail with text and pics.

Stan

http://iwanoryoskewerkstattbericht.b...011/02/rw.html

[Winton Applegate]

Stan,
Your pics didn't load.
Encore
Encore

[Winton Applegate]

I think the Odate article I recall was in Fine woodworking. He did an article on making shoji screens.

I am torn (not really) this is kind of off the topic of this thread but not, I feel, worth starting another thread so here goes . . .

I found the FWW issue = May/June '82 #34 p 50-58

Mr. Odate wrote :
When I was 16 . . . was apprenticed to [a shokunin].
After seven years of this I could call myself shokunin, which means craftsman.
Such an apprenticeship is the only way to acquire a skill in Japan, for these kinds of skills are nowhere written down and never pursued as hobbies. I don't imagine you can become shokunin by reading my article.

For that matter, [Toshio writes] I am NO LONGER shokunin. I have been in America 24 years now [that was written in 1982], and my commitments are different.
end quote.

So
He was shokunin
he now CHOOSES to no longer call him self shokunin.

Thanks for inspiring me to go back and reread a very enjoyable article.
FWW
are you listening ? ? ? ? ? ?
Larger articles, more personally focused, no routers or fewer routers = selling magazines to me.

[Brian Holcombe]

BRIAN

Here are some pic and a link I copied from the internet.

Notice how the hoop is radiuses in the sketch below. Very important.

In the pic below, notice how the handle is shaved so the hoop fits and there is a smooth transition to keep the hoop from digging into the handle and splitting it. That assumes the handle is bigger than the hoop, which is often the case. If you set up your handles and hoops this way, they will last many many years of hard use.

In the blog, notice how he works the ferrule.

There is more that could be explained, and I hoper to have a blog up before too many months go by that explains things in more detail with text and pics.

Stan

http://iwanoryoskewerkstattbericht.b...011/02/rw.html

Thank you! Those pictures on the blog are very helpful.

[Steve Voigt]

Even 160 degrees can draw temper. Check it out..

Stan

Stan,

You know . . .
I have said here in the Neander that 200°F can draw temper but was told I was full of beans.
I recall reading that a plane blade that was considered to be too hard could be put on a tin roof on a very hot day and that would be enough to mellow it.

Sounds like a steaming pile of…beans, alright.
Here are the specs for Hitachi's white and blue steels. Blue is tempered at 160 CELSIUS, or 320 F here in The Real Murica. If the steel has been heated to 320°, heating it to 319° will not affect the temper, unless in your original tempering the steel didn't heat evenly.
Now of course, that's not the same thing at all as turning your oven to 320° and assuming all will be well. For example, my detestable electric oven (oh for a gas oven) can spike well above the temp setting. Putting a couple heavy cast-iron pans in to absorb heat can help smooth out the spikes. But actually I much prefer to temper on the stove top, heating the part slowly and gradually to the desired color (which varies according to the type of steel). I get much more consistent results that way. YMMV, of course.
By the way, Aldo Bruno, the NJ steel baron, has the blue steel in stock now. That's the first time I've ever seen it available without having to pay shipping from UK or Germany. Might be worth a gamble for the truly adventurous…(not me, I'll Keep It Simple Stupid with O1 or 1084 or 1095)

[Stanley Covington]

I stand corrected.

Stan

[Tom McMahon]

Metal hoops on wooden handles, when exposed to seasonal humidity cycles, will always loosen do to compression set. Compression set is the least understood aspect of wood movement. Compression set like wood movement cannot be avoided. Resetting wooden handles trapped in metal is a never ending maintenance task unless you can totally eliminate humidity swings. If you live in an area with very little humidity swing it may not be an issue, but if you have humidity swings you will have to deal with loose handles as a maintenance issue.

[Sam Murdoch]

Metal hoops on wooden handles, when exposed to seasonal humidity cycles, will always loosen do to compression set. Compression set is the least understood aspect of wood movement. Compression set like wood movement cannot be avoided. Resetting wooden handles trapped in metal is a never ending maintenance task unless you can totally eliminate humidity swings. If you live in an area with very little humidity swing it may not be an issue, but if you have humidity swings you will have to deal with loose handles as a maintenance issue.

As the OP I thought that I might hear more of a response like this. Rather I heard that I messed up from the beginning . I'm willing to believe that that might be the case but I surely expected that others would say as Tom writes above. Maybe a chisel humidor is not so farfetched. I have in the meantime moved them to a cooler spot in the shop with less temp and humidity swing AND still thinking I might replace all my chisel handles in the near future. That would be a good project (like I need another project ).

[Winton Applegate]

Sounds like a steaming pile of…beans, alright.
Here are the specs for Hitachi's white and blue steels. Blue is tempered at 160 CELSIUS, or 320 F here in The Real Murica. If the steel has been heated to 320°, heating it to 319° will not affect the temper, unless in your original tempering the steel didn't heat evenly.

I know what you are saying; if the blade maker has tempered the steel PROPERLY to get the 62 hardness then if the steel gets heated to say 212°F afterward then it will make no difference.

I did notice though in the link to the heat treating specs that had the steel been left fully hard, which the advertisers seem to want their customers to believe when they post hardness specs in the 64 or even harder range . . .
again if the steel had been left fully hard
then
if the steel were to be heated to 100°C it would begin to loose it's hardness.
100°C = 212F°
so in a way I wasn't so far off after all.

Stan,
I noticed you were pretty quiet about the subject of the practical oil question and the Toshio Shokunin thing.
That's OK
jussssscheckin' in.

[Larry Edgerton]

Sam, I have that problem this time of year, when a collar slips off I paint the inside of it a bit with contact cement, a dab on the handle, slip it back together while it is still wet, end of problem. I tried Chair-Lock but the contact cement works better.

I heat with wood..........

Larry

[Brian Hale]

I've been in my new shop for 4 years now and a woodstove is my only heat source. Each January my totes and saw handles would begin to get loose. This year i got a cast iron woodstove kettle from Amazon for $35 and it's helped a lot. I average 6 liters of water a day and the shop stays around 40% relative humidity. The shop is a separate building 30'x40' with an average ceiling height 12'

Something to consider.