Chisel Hoops in a heated shop

[Stanley Covington]

If your hoops are coming loose, they were installed incorrectly to begin with. Don't soak them in water. It makes the wood swell, then the steel hoop crushes the swollen fibers, and later the handle shrinks leaving the hoop loose. Absolute nonsense. Oil evaporates too, and it softens the wood, which is long term bad news.

There are three ways to install the hoop on a handle that is too big. First, heat the handle in a oven for a few hours to dry it it and shrink it, and before it expands, drive the hoop on. The more traditional way is strike the sides of the handle's end with steel hammer partially collapsing the wood fibers (kigoroshi), and then drive on the hoop. The fibers will swell back to near original size over time if you did not go overboard with your hammer. The third way is to shave the end of the handle with a knife so the hoop can be driven on. It should be a very tight fit, so pay close attention when shaving. In each case, the inside of the hoop needs to be filed smooth and radiused in cross section. Sharp corners are bad.

After the hoop is on, and driven a bit past the end of the handle, simply strike the corners of the handle's end with a steel hammer deforming the wood just enough to lock the hoop in place. No water.

If the hoop is loose on a new chisel, file and radius the hoop, and shim it with paper or postcard wrapped around the end of the handle, drive on the hoop, and trim the excess paper with a knife. Paper is wood.

There is so much bad information about setting up chisels....

Stan

[Winton Applegate]

As far as the water on the wood here is my why and were fore (see my photos of the book page):
Just enough to make the end fibers pliable for a quick peening. Not so much that it gets much into the handle. Toshio says dunk the end in water. I just wiped a bit on with my finger.

Anyway it worked well.

This is where I got that from and he knows. I decided to try the Windsor chair technique (dry in the oven) rather than hammer the fibers to compress them and that worked exceedingly well.

PS: Wood smoke smells good.
Maybe in the magical (and perhaps sparsely populated) land where you live.
Here in Colorado at about eight thousand feet, the air is thin enough with out sucking what little there is into a wood stove and spewing it all over the canyon where I am attempting to breath. I rode home to a fog of burnt garbage wood hanging around our house from the neighbors. Nothing about it smelled remotely good it just smelled foul and poisonous and if I wanted to get home I could not avoid it.

There was no reason for it. The neighbors are not in the least low income. Heating the home with natural gas is much cheeper anyway unless one enjoys working for minimum wage (when one counts their time spent, searching out, loading, hauling, unloading, sawing, splitting, cleaning the stove, removing the junk from the flew from the sappy crappy soft wood around here)
natural gas is much cleaner and cheeper.
Burning wood in the city is being selfish and inconsiderate and endangering others in more ways than one. It is outlawed in some cities and for good reason.
Good riddance.

[Stanley Covington]

As far as the water on the wood here is my why and were fore (see my photos of the book page):
Just enough to make the end fibers pliable for a quick peening. Not so much that it gets much into the handle. Toshio says dunk the end in water. I just wiped a bit on with my finger.

Anyway it worked well.This is where I got that from and he knows. I decided to try the Windsor chair technique (dry in the oven) rather than hammer the fibers to compress them and that worked exceedingly well.

Yes, I know where you got it.

When I first mentioned Odate's method to Shimamura san (Kiyotada) many years ago, he scowled at me like I was a halfwit and turned away. When I asked a professional joiner (tategushi) why Shimamura san was so disgusted, he told me it was the way country bumpkins set up their chisels, not accomplished shokunin. Before this unpleasant experience, I had set up my first of Japanese chisels as Odate suggested. Sure enough, the handles in that set all gave me trouble. The methods I described in my earlier post are the ones I learned to replace the country bumpkin method. There is a lot to setting a chisel up properly for best performance and long life, none of which is described in Odate's book.

Although it will be taken as blasphemy by some on this forum, keep in mind that Odate himself explicitly denies being a shokunin. He is an artist.

[ken hatch]

I've done it both ways, early chisels were soaked, later chisels, once I kinda knew what I was doing, were hammered. The ones with the hammered ends have never loosened.

Thanks Stanley for the story, luckily for me I have been able to bumble around and figure at least some of it out without too much embarrassment or too many ruined tools.

ken

[Sam Murdoch]

If your hoops are coming loose, they were installed incorrectly to begin with. Don't soak them in water. It makes the wood swell, then the steel hoop crushes the swollen fibers, and later the handle shrinks leaving the hoop loose. Absolute nonsense. Oil evaporates too, and it softens the wood, which is long term bad news.

There are three ways to install the hoop on a handle that is too big. First, heat the handle in a oven for a few hours to dry it it and shrink it, and before it expands, drive the hoop on. The more traditional way is strike the sides of the handle's end with steel hammer partially collapsing the wood fibers (kigoroshi), and then drive on the hoop. The fibers will swell back to near original size over time if you did not go overboard with your hammer. The third way is to shave the end of the handle with a knife so the hoop can be driven on. It should be a very tight fit, so pay close attention when shaving. In each case, the inside of the hoop needs to be filed smooth and radiused in cross section. Sharp corners are bad.

After the hoop is on, and driven a bit past the end of the handle, simply strike the corners of the handle's end with a steel hammer deforming the wood just enough to lock the hoop in place. No water.

If the hoop is loose on a new chisel, file and radius the hoop, and shim it with paper or postcard wrapped around the end of the handle, drive on the hoop, and trim the excess paper with a knife. Paper is wood.

There is so much bad information about setting up chisels....

Stan

OK - so assume I set the hoops incorrectly and assume that now they are in effect fully baked in my winter heated shop (up to 76°F/24.5°C in the day time down to 58°F/14.5°C through the night). The hoops are now too big in relation to the available handle wood. I get that I should not soak the chisels handles should I then just wrap the handles in paper and reset the hoops?

Thank you for some useful feedback.

[David Wong]

The hoops are now too big in relation to the available handle wood. I get that I should not soak the chisels handles should I then just wrap the handles in paper and reset the hoops?

I have had to cut the excess end off of chisel handles that were too skinny for the hoop - in some cases ~1/4". After cutting, set the chisel hoop as normal. You could also get new smaller hoops if you really want to preserve the chisel handle length. I have seen them on eBay, or at Hida Tools.

[Winton Applegate]

I had set up my first of Japanese chisels as Odate suggested. Sure enough, the handles in that set all gave me trouble. The methods I described in my earlier post are the ones I learned to replace the country bumpkin method. There is a lot to setting a chisel up properly for best performance and long life, none of which is described in Odate's book.

He is an artist.

keep in mind that Odate himself explicitly denies being a shokunin.

That's an interesting one. I had never seen him write that. I have not had the pleasure of seeing him in a demonstration in person. So I am not contradicting what you say.

In theory he was an apprentice to his step father who was a Shokunin. He worked with many other Shokunin around him for years. He got beat (some times with a hammer) for any lack of attention. That's pretty darn close to BEEEEEING a Shokunin. I think to some degree he is being modest. It is of course true it has been a very long time since he has worked as / with Shokunin , specifically serving his community as a woodworker day in and day out.

Since I posted last I had one great reservation that has been nagging at me that I hope it is not too late to put right.
Baking the handle for the hammer is one thing.
Baking the chisel handle WITH THE CHISEL TANG IN THE HANDLE is quite another and could turn into a disaster for about the same reason that we most certainly do not want to wet the end of the handle to where the wood later shrinks when the water leaves the wood.
Meaning if the handle shrinks down on the tang extra tight from heating and then grows in diameter again perhaps the fibers would have been crushed next to the tang; temporarily or permanently. Sure there is the socket, most likely, but still I do not want to inadvertently cause another problem with the baking of the handle causing the chisel to loosen in the handle.

There is a lot to setting a chisel up properly for best performance and long life, none of which is described in Odate's book.

None of which ?
I think that is a little strong. Seems like he mentioned the same things you did. The only difference was you never apply any water at all to the handle. I will second that.
and
the paper thing he did not mention.
Paper is still pretty crappy stuff compared to an oak handle that has been very carefully selected and prepared which would have plant cells in tact capable of taking on and holding moisture. Hence the comment not to overly hammer the fibers.
I am kinda proud of him not mentioning that one (paper shim).

PS: I have suffered my share of bumpkins. Mr. Odate is a bright and witty man . . . far from a bumpkin.

[Winton Applegate]

Oil evaporates too,

I thought I put that myth, for the practical purposes we are addressing here, to rest.
None of the oils I put on the glass evaporated (left the glass). They are ALL still there after four months or so. In various states from liquid to plastic solid but NON OF THE OILS EVAPORATED. No doubt there are essential oils that might sorta waft a little but those are not the ones listed before or in this thread.

Please stop saying that.

The oil may travel deeper not the handle. I will buy that.

and it softens the wood, which is long term bad news.

Yes I thought that as soon as I read it.

My next thought was replace the oil with very fluid epoxy . . .
but
better yet just bake the handle, put on the hoop, tap the end to peen it over.
Done.
Then the wood can move to keep up with the changes in humidity.
The epoxy impregnated fibers, once they are compressed would not expand again with the addition of moisture in the air.

[Stanley Covington]

That's an interesting one. I had never seen him write that. I have not had the pleasure of seeing him in a demonstration in person. So I am not contradicting what you say. In theory he was an apprentice to his step father who was a Shokunin. He worked with many other Shokunin around him for years. He got beat (some times with a hammer) for any lack of attention. That's pretty darn close to BEEEEEING a Shokunin. I think to some degree he is being modest. It is of course true it has been a very long time since he has worked as / with Shokunin , specifically serving his community as a woodworker day in and day out.

Since I posted last I had one great reservation that has been nagging at me that I hope it is not too late to put right.
Baking the handle for the hammer is one thing. Baking the chisel handle WITH THE CHISEL TANG IN THE HANDLE is quite another and could turn into a disaster for about the same reason that we most certainly do not want to wet the end of the handle to where the wood later shrinks when the water leaves the wood.
Meaning if the handle shrinks down on the tang extra tight from heating and then grows in diameter again perhaps the fibers would have been crushed next to the tang; temporarily or permanently. Sure there is the socket, most likely, but still I do not want to inadvertently cause another problem with the baking of the handle causing the chisel to loosen in the handle. None of which ? I think that is a little strong. Seems like he mentioned the same things you did. The only difference was you never apply any water at all to the handle. I will second that. and the paper thing he did not mention. Paper is still pretty crappy stuff compared to an oak handle that has been very carefully selected and prepared which would have plant cells in tact capable of taking on and holding moisture. Hence the comment not to overly hammer the fibers. I am kinda proud of him not mentioning that one (paper shim).
PS: I have suffered my share of bumpkins. Mr. Odate is a bright and witty man . . . far from a bumpkin.

I don't have many books with me here in Tokyo, so I can't dig out where he wrote he admitted to not being a shokunin.

Please note that I did not say he was a "country bumpkin" (inakamono) but that the technique he advocated was described to me by others as such. I have no doubt he is a bright guy.

There is not enough hours in the day to write details, so I leave much out. You are right about the oven: the blade must be removed before putting it in the oven. Besides the damage the tang would do to the handle socket, the heat will harm the blade.

I have applied varnish to the ends of chisel handles before as an experiment. It did not go well at all. The wood fibers broke off instead of flexing and bending in use. Perhaps epoxy would work better, but I doubt it. If you try it, please let us know.

When I said "none of which" that was an overstatement, I admit. He does mention deburring and radiusing the hoop. But the kigoroshi method he describes is not the best way to fit a hoop. He does not describe how to file the tang and its shoulder, true the socket end of the handle, correct errors inside the socket itself, deburr the ferrule (kuchigane), relieve the handle where the ferrule rides, or re-color the hoop and ferrule. There was room in his book, and these are important steps that he did not mention, so I must assume he did not know them at the time his book was published. That's OK, but it is an incomplete explanation.

Paper is indeed weak compared to oak. If the handle and hoop fit is loose, better to replace the hoop or handle. But neither are easy things to do for most people, and paper or cardboard will suffice. All that is required of the paper or cardboard is be compressed. Doesn't have to be oak.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

OK - so assume I set the hoops incorrectly and assume that now they are in effect fully baked in my winter heated shop (up to 76°F/24.5°C in the day time down to 58°F/14.5°C through the night). The hoops are now too big in relation to the available handle wood. I get that I should not soak the chisels handles should I then just wrap the handles in paper and reset the hoops?

Sam:

Ideally, you would either buy a smaller hoop, or make a bigger handle. But paper will get the job done. Don't soak them in water. It would e interesting to try something like the PEG formula turners use....

It occurs to me that if you weld, steel could be added inside the hoop, and it could be filed to fit better....

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I thought I put that myth, for the practical purposes we are addressing here, to rest.
None of the oils I put on the glass evaporated (left the glass). They are ALL still there after four months or so. In various states from liquid to plastic solid but NON OF THE OILS EVAPORATED. No doubt there are essential oils that might sorta waft a little but those are not the ones listed before or in this thread. Please stop saying that.
.

I'm glad you're convinced oils don't evaporate, but chemistry (vapor pressure of hydrocarbons) and practical experience contradict.

[Sam Murdoch]

New handles might be in the offing - certainly the present condition is unacceptable and paper wraps are embarrassing .
I will also store my chisels differently if I ever need to keep the shop heated to the same extent for any period of time.
Lesson learned.

[Brian Holcombe]

If your hoops are coming loose, they were installed incorrectly to begin with. Don't soak them in water. It makes the wood swell, then the steel hoop crushes the swollen fibers, and later the handle shrinks leaving the hoop loose. Absolute nonsense. Oil evaporates too, and it softens the wood, which is long term bad news.

There are three ways to install the hoop on a handle that is too big. First, heat the handle in a oven for a few hours to dry it it and shrink it, and before it expands, drive the hoop on. The more traditional way is strike the sides of the handle's end with steel hammer partially collapsing the wood fibers (kigoroshi), and then drive on the hoop. The fibers will swell back to near original size over time if you did not go overboard with your hammer. The third way is to shave the end of the handle with a knife so the hoop can be driven on. It should be a very tight fit, so pay close attention when shaving. In each case, the inside of the hoop needs to be filed smooth and radiused in cross section. Sharp corners are bad.

After the hoop is on, and driven a bit past the end of the handle, simply strike the corners of the handle's end with a steel hammer deforming the wood just enough to lock the hoop in place. No water.

If the hoop is loose on a new chisel, file and radius the hoop, and shim it with paper or postcard wrapped around the end of the handle, drive on the hoop, and trim the excess paper with a knife. Paper is wood.

There is so much bad information about setting up chisels....

Stan

Stan,

I appreciate this insight. Can I trouble you to post a photo of a properly installed hoop. I know it must seem very basic, but I would like to see how you proceed in deforming the corners of the handle's end.

I took the oil method, but I'm certainly willing to move onto better methods if it is not a good approach.

Thank you,

[Winton Applegate]

Stan,

Thank you for elaborating on points missing from our friend’s texts.
I see.

the heat will harm the blade.

See . . .
now there . . . with all due respect . . . there you are scaring me.
A very low oven around 200 ° F would chase the moisture out of the handle and not in the least harm the blade. I suppose I am envisioning a gas oven with an accurate enough thermometer sitting in it for verification.
or
more likely the end of the handle near the wood stove and the chisel end pointing away into the room.

so I must assume he did not know them at the time his book was published.

ha, ha, take this with humor :
I think you have answered your question there.
We will blame the publisher and say that perhaps it was cut out for brevity so the tome did not become a weighty tome.

weighty tome
I may have set a personal record here today . . .
“weighty tome” may be the nerdiest, ickiest, thing I have ever written. The sound of it even creeps me out. Yucky, sticky.

. . . anyway Stan
Sounds like we agree on many things and you have given the OP exactly what he needs to know to SOLVE his problem.
I am sure I will leave the epoxy on the chisels thing alone.
In all seriousness I don’t think I can improve on what you have described; after all, those guys have been perfecting their methods for a thousand years and more.

PS:

Shimamura san (Kiyotada) many years ago, he scowled at me like I was a halfwit and turned away.

tell Shimamura san, from me, to stop scowling and being so grumpy.
WE NEED HIS HELP and expertise.

Ohiogozamas
(probably spelled wrong but that is one of the few Japanese words I know)

humbly but with a hint of Zen humor
winton

[Winton Applegate]

practical experience contradict.

Yes that is all exact and stuff but
the amount of "evaporation" is so minuscule, apparently, from what I am staring at in front of me to be unimportant to the handle discussion.
Am I the only one on the planet that sees that if I had put on the glass (next to the oil samples on the glass)
Distilled water,
Filtered water
Carbonated water
Sea water
P___ water

That NON of those would be there now, as liquid, but that the oils would still be there ?
Get real.
If I poor oil on the handle it will soak in and be there five years from now.
If I poor oil on a sharpening stone it will soak in and be there five years from now.
Water . . . would not.
WHAT in heaven's name are you saying ?
WHAT is your PRACTICAL point here.