The Veritas Custom Planes - more than a review

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I'd LOVE to not be dimensioning with a #4, but I hardly have any of the desirable tools for many woodworking tasks.

Hopefully I'll be able to rectify that little by little starting this new year. I'm interested in the Low Angle Jack because of the versatility.

Hi Matt

What other planes do you have? Machinery? And what is the scale of your work - boxes vs cabinets.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Padilla]

Folks,

I did a lot of editing so that this thread could be restored. Please keep things friendly and civil.

Thanks....

[Matt Bainton]

Ah, Derek, I meant to imply that i don't own a lot of woodworking tools. As far as surfacing, I've got a Stanley No. 4, a Craftsman block plane, and a Stanley 151 spokeshave.

As far as work size, I'm working on skill building via shop projects (joiners mallet, Moxon vise, sawbench, etc) but I hope to work on home furniture such as dining table, master bed, bookshelves, and smaller stuff like boxes and an electric bass. Ambitious for sure, but I'm looking forward to the long road.

Edit: Thanks for stepping in, Chris.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Sorry, I was thinking it over and re-reading all posts before replying... Also finally noticed post of Paul Sellers that Stewie linked (will he stop deleting his posts already?). It happened to be my question there that I posted in comments!

So which would be easier to push? Hell, six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. You are taking fine shavings, and there would not be a lot in it, not enough to make it the deciding factor. The high cutting angle on the BU is not the same as a high cutting angle on a BD plane. You can easily tell the difference when you swap frogs on a LN bench plane. I have a LN #3, purchased with a 55 degree frog. I did not get on with this combination: the angle was not high enough to control tearout on my local woods, and the plane was hard to push (with an unwaxed sole). I changed to a 50 degree frog - could not go lower because I was using a #4 handle, and the 45 degree frog would not fit with this. But it was not a lot different ... better, but not enough, because by now I was reasonably proficient at setting the chipbreaker. I worked out a way to modify the #4 handle to fit the 45 degree frog, and so ended up with one.

Is it actually possible to take NOT so fine shavings on reversible grain with 45 degree BD and a chipbreaker? Because fine shavings take long time to remove considerable amount of material...

A couple of last comments: firstly, BU planes with high cutting angles make excellent smoothers. BU planes are excellent planes. They are easier to set up than anything else, and their performance can be superb, better than 90% of woodworkers need for the woods they work. Secondly, ignore the silly sprouting of advice given by Paul Sellers about BU planes. He has no clue - he achieves poor performances with them since he only hones his blades at about 30 degrees - which means that he is cutting with very low angles. Not good. Thirdly, I must warn that the 42 degree frog on the Custom #4 is not a beginners choice. It takes a little more accuracy in placement for the chipbreaker to work. I suspect that the lower the frog angle, the higher the leading edge of the chipbreaker needs to be, or the closer to the edge of the blade one needs to get (relative to the desired thickness of the shaving).

Yes, I have this feeling that Paul Sellers is like master in old kung fu movies. He tells you to master simple move for 2 years before teacher would tell you anything interesting. And apparently, this interesting is already kind of trivial after 2 years. Can work amazingly good though, with enough effort. In other words, first master BD planes for many years then you can touch BU plane

However, watching every video and reading every discussion on this topic I have also encountered that some woodworkers started with BU planes (good advertisement again?) and over time, let's say 5 years, they tend to use #4 BD plane most of the time. Christopher Schwarz writes that three finger grip and ability to adjust depth of cut while pushing he likes more. Which probably means that once mastered, BU and BD planes only differ in aftertaste. But then again, what exactly is it? At least now we know another flavor of it, Center of Effort.

About chipbreaker and 42 degree frog - what about chipbreaker angle? Since I have read studies of that Japanese professor, I remember that was crucial for that chip breaking effect. Could it be that difficulty of setting chipbreaker properly on 42 degree frog is caused by concentrating on distance to the blade edge primarily and neglecting chipbreaker edge shape? It seems that results might depend on what chipbreaker happened to be in which hands.

By the way, how that norris-style depth and lateral adjuster compares to traditional one? Is it easy to adjust while still gripping the toat (something that seems important to most)?

[Niels Cosman]

Folks,

I did a lot of editing so that this thread could be restored. Please keep things friendly and civil.

Thanks....

Thanks Chris, We love you!

[Brian Holcombe]

Is it actually possible to take NOT so fine shavings on reversible grain with 45 degree BD and a chipbreaker? Because fine shavings take long time to remove considerable amount of material...

Quite possible, I've taken shavings with a BD jack and BD try plane that can practically stand up on their own.

The he trick to removing heavy stock is to have three planes; Coarse, medium and finish.

The jack plane is set with a heavy camber and is planned for heavy stock removal, followed by the try plane which is lightly cambered and set for jointing the board and finally the smoothing plane is set with a very light camber and is intended for finishing the blade.

Appropriate chipper settings in all cases.

[Warren Mickley]

However, watching every video and reading every discussion on this topic I have also encountered that some woodworkers started with BU planes (good advertisement again?) and over time, let's say 5 years, they tend to use #4 BD plane most of the time. Christopher Schwarz writes that three finger grip and ability to adjust depth of cut while pushing he likes more. Which probably means that once mastered, BU and BD planes only differ in aftertaste. But then again, what exactly is it? At least now we know another flavor of it, Center of Effort.

I abandoned high angle planing and bevel up planes in 1976. There are three reasons for this.

First, the surface quality deteriorates as the cutting angle increases. This is especially noticeable in the more tender woods.

Second, the effort is less with a lower angle of attack.

Third, with a bevel down plane, a higher bedding angle is much more abusive to the edge.

A double iron plane allows you to very easily adjust the plane to the task at hand. One plane, one plane iron, one bevel, which is much to be desired for intimacy with your tool.

Around 1982 I altered a double iron plane to have a 42 degree bedding angle. I use this plane on end grain, although it has absolutely no problems with tearout on long grain. There is a difference between this plane and a 45 degree plane, but it is barely noticeable. I would not pay $50 extra to replace it at 42 degrees if it were lost.

[Derek Cohen]

First, the surface quality deteriorates as the cutting angle increases. This is especially noticeable in the more tender woods.

Agree with soft woods, however I cannot say that I have noticed any significant difference on local hardwoods. Any minor differences may end up being cancelled by the finish used.

Second, the effort is less with a lower angle of attack.

Agree

Third, with a bevel down plane, a higher bedding angle is much more abusive to the edge.

Agree (further, I demonstrated this in the Veritas shooting plane review, where the LN #51 was included for comparison).

A double iron plane allows you to very easily adjust the plane to the task at hand. One plane, one plane iron, one bevel, which is much to be desired for intimacy with your tool.

Agree, with the qualification that setting the chipbreaker does have a longish learning curve - while one can get it going fairly quickly, it takes a lot more time to extract the best from the method. A high angle BU produces excellent results on interlocked grain, and has a short learning curve. There are going to be those who want to master a new skill, and others who want an easier path.

Warren, I purchased the 42-degree frog to replace a 50 degree frog on the Veritas. I could have chosen a 45 degree frog, but I was curious about your having gone down this route, and this influenced my decision. How does it differ from a 45 degree frog? I can only compare with a Stanley #604. The lower frog does appear to require less force, but the planes are different, which makes conclusions less reliable. I am happy with the combination.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

The planing angle has a noticeable effect on medium hardwoods, in my experience. Talking walnut/cherry, ect, not the granite you call wood

[Chris Padilla]

Also finally noticed post of Paul Sellers that Stewie linked (will he stop deleting his posts already?). It happened to be my question there that I posted in comments!

Andrey,

It could well have been my severe editing that removed the post you are referring to. I nuked a good 15 or so posts so that I could get the thread back on track and on topic.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

The trick to removing heavy stock is to have three planes; Coarse, medium and finish.

Ah, yes, thanks for reminding. I have read that article again.

The jack plane is set with a heavy camber and is planned for heavy stock removal, followed by the try plane which is lightly cambered and set for jointing the board and finally the smoothing plane is set with a very light camber and is intended for finishing the blade.

Appropriate chipper settings in all cases.

That is more or less clear now, after all videos and books. But since I have only BU planes from Veritas that share the same blade type... BUS, LAJ, BUJ... plus scrub plane. BU planes work great for me with cutting angle around 50 degree and thin shavings. Thicker shavings are more problematic and especially with low angle blade results in severe tearout if it bites more than a thou or so. So, my whole obsession about buying a BD plane, like Veritas custom, is to be able to plane thicker and to remove that extra 1/16 in several passes without fear of damaging too deep. As opposite to hundred passes that I do now with finely set BU plane. For stock milling by hand I can use toothed blade I hope (didn't try that yet). But for tailoring width of the boards this is probably not going to work.

I enjoy buying Veritas planes, I confess in that. :-) Slippery slope of buying more and more hand planes already scares me a bit as I approach a dozen of them. And so I'm stuck in my decision given still so many options and less money. Veritas custom planes are very appealing due to adjustable mouth and threaded holes for jointer fence. I'm thinking of #5 1/2 at first, for shooting and smoothing soft pine. Then I can potentially extend with #7 and #4 1/2 at later time as they have the same blades. Another tempting plane is Veritas #6 which is longer and has machined sides all the way which is nice to check board progress for flatness and still possible to use as smoother (after watching Alan Peters too much, but I hope Veritas BUS is smoother enough for me). What your experience gentlemen could say in this regard?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Andrey

I would not try and emulate Alan Peters, who is reputed to have used a #7 for all. As far as I am aware, he had and used other planes. In any event, he used machines for preparing his boards, not handplanes.

Why get a Custom #5 1/2 for shooting when you already have a BU plane for this task? I would rather Use a LA Jack for shooting than any of the Custom planes.

It appears to me that the one you most want is the #7, since this can take deep shavings where it is needed. Consider next a smoother, such as the #4.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree, for the most part and prefer BD planes for my work for similar reasons. However I have a few questions with regard to your current setup;

When you say you are having tear out problems with a heavy cut, are you making a heavy cut with the Jack plane? Is the blade cambered? Are you cutting at a diagonal that is biased with the grain? Are you reading the direction of the grain properly? Are you chamfering the back edge?

Yes, a BD plane with a chipper will help, but these things need to be taken into consideration and practice as well. Refine what you have to work with currently before you purchase more planes. I can do 100% of my dimensioning and finishing work with three planes and that is from rough milled to tear out free finish.

Finish planes almost always require a light cut. The bevel down version will have a tight chipper setting and generally work best with a light cut. Not whisper thin, or see through, but generally about .001"~.

Your jointer plane should be set for a medium cut, I take about a .005" cut with my Try plane (jointer length). The rough work is done already with the Jack plane when you pickup the try plane. I tune the faces with a try plane. This is where you will find a great improvement in work flow and speed with a proper BD plane....and quite frankly for dimensioning work from the rough, my only choice would be a wooden Try plane.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Why get a Custom #5 1/2 for shooting when you already have a BU plane for this task? I would rather Use a LA Jack for shooting than any of the Custom planes.

True, maybe I used wrong term for what I mean. I like to reduce width and make square edges of a board by laying it on the surface and the plane on the side. Shooting probably means doing the same but for end grain specifically. For that indeed Veritas LAJ that I have should be the best and shavings cannot be thick. But when it comes to using the same arrangement for cutting along the board and along the grain and to remove considerable thickness (one-two mm) then BU planes I find somewhat less reliable (luck of skill possible too). And thus assuming there is no suitable plane for that I tend to think of universal jack plane for the first try in BD planes kingdom.

It appears to me that the one you most want is the #7, since this can take deep shavings where it is needed. Consider next a smoother, such as the #4.

Thanks for the advise. Have to meditate on this I might sense in your response that Veritas Bevel Up Jointer in your arsenal has limited use and complemented with BD #7 for that. And that is probably the same for smoother. I also did some research based on pictures of hand plane collections that other people have, especially those who recently started. And many of those that have BU trio also have BD #3 or #4 and #6 or #7. Sorry, I rely too much on intuition for the luck of experience.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Andrey

As you are aware, it is not possible to shoot with the LV BU Jointer. However, the Custum #7 works very well in this respect. Here I am shooting bookmaked boards that are 1/4" thick ..





I keep a straight blade on the #7 and a slightly cambered blade on the BU Jointer. The #7 used a 40 degree frog, which makes it capable of shooting end grain and, with the chipbreaker, coping with all interlocked face and edge grain.

I so have woodies - I have made several jointers over the years. However, I prefer the low centre of gravity and effort of the Veritas planes. They provide more feedback.

Regards from Perth

Derek