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Thread: Radial arm saws

  1. #1

    Radial arm saws

    I have a late '70s/early '80s vintage Craftsman radial arm saw (model 113.19771). I prefer it over my power miter saw. The RAS has greater cut depth, a big table, and dust collection is far easier to set up. However, I know that these are on the lower end of the RAS family, and getting a used DeWalt or one of the turret Deltas would be a big step up in quality.

    I have heard that there is a certain amount of variance in the quality of the DeWalts, with the round-arm models being the best, and quality tailing off over the years. My question is, was there ever a point that the DeWalts' quality tailed off to the point that a given model is no longer a significant step up from my current Craftsman? I've heard that any DeWalt (even the later square-tops) with the elevation crank mounted at the pedestal are still a significant step up from what I have, but DeWalt quality took a hit around the time they moved the elevation crank to mid-arm. At what point along that continuum (if any) should I judge that there's no longer a significant quality improvement over what I currently have?

  2. #2
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    Paul, I don't know the answer to your question directly. I don't think Dewalt ever put out a bargain RAS though. Could be wrong there. Question for you though, is your Craftsman doing something you want to upgrade away from? If it's working perfectly, nothing out there will be much of an improvement.

  3. #3
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    Paul,

    I have a 7790, 12", with the crank at the post. You are right about the ones with the crank at the front of the arm. If you look closely, you will notice that the actual cast iron part of those arms is much smaller than the square ones.

    As far as making a bargain basement DeWalt, there are some 7 1/2-8 1/2" models that simply had a bent metal tubing which was both the arm and the post. Pretty light weight.

    I understand that DeWalt actually made some of the Sears saws for a while. They look basically like the square DeWalts. Don't know if they were lesser saws or not.

    I had a round top GA model for a while. Guess I will go against the flow, as I like the 7790 better. More HP, electric brake, etc. Mine was built about 1983, and I have had it at least 15 years.

    P8150144.jpg
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  4. #4
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    I grew up learning woodworking on my fathers 10" Delta Turret arm that he purchased new in the late 50's. We did not have a table saw and ripped many thousands of linear feet on this Delta. It always did a fantastic job.

    My first RAS was a 70's vintage craftsman. I could never get all the play out of the arm. I adjusted it so that when the nose of the arm was pushed all the way to the left it was at 90 degrees. This was a disappointment after having gotten used to my fathers Delta turret. The Craftsman did do plenty of work remodeling my first house which I purchased with major fire damage.

    My second saw was a Dewalt GA 12" 5hp single phase saw. It was a good step up from the Craftsman but still didn't do all that great of a job holding a 90 and there was a bit of a bounce in the saw when the motor/carriage was at the fully extended position. It must have been a pretty well used saw as the carriage bearing ways were not smooth at the point where the carriage was fully retracted.

    My third saw is a 1947 RedStar Multiplex 50A with a 7.5hp 3ph motor and 16" blade capacity. I consider this the best saw EVER. The one feature this saw has that I haven't seen on any other RAS is the table can be moved in/out from the saw. Although I never rip on this saw the movable table has come in extremely handy in all sorts of situations.

    My 4th saw is a Walker Turner 1100 12" 5hp 3ph geared head saw. The indexes and returning to zero without any additional adjusting or tuning is excellent... pretty much as good as on my RedStar. This poor saw spent 2 months on the local CraigsList and I finally broke down and paid $70 for it then rebuilt it. I use the Walker Turner with an abrasive blade to cut metal and use my RedStar for wood working. My only real complaint about the Walker Turner is the arm extends so far behind the saw when the carriage is retracted that the saw can not be kept/used against a wall. Otherwise it is a pretty magnificent beast.

    In my opinion the RedStar/Rockwell/Delta turret arm design is the best. I still use my fathers 10" Delta Turret arm when I give my mom a hand around her place. It almost feels like a bit of a toy after having gotten used to my 16" RedStar monster but it is tight, cuts very well and returns to zero accurately and reliably.

    One MAJOR advantage to the newer (1950's and younger) Turret arm saws is the carriage bearings run on replaceable drill rod ways. All other RAS's I am familiar with have the ways machined into the arm and are expensive if not near impossible to have reground. The turret arm drill rod ways can be indexed 90 degrees for a completely new bearing surface in about 5 minutes or completely replaced from any steel seller for about $20.

    There is a 10" Delta Turret arm currently on the local Craigslist that started at $200 a couple months ago and is now down to $30.... oh the agony!
    Last edited by Mike Schuch; 01-28-2015 at 3:44 AM.

  5. #5
    I used to own a mid 70's DeWalt 10" with the mid arm crank. It was underpowered but useful and took 30 years to burn up. I replaced it with circa 1950 Delta 14" turret which is awesome in terms of power and quality of cut. A major upgrade.

  6. #6
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    We have a 1960 DeWalt (Black&Decker) square arm at work, and I have an early '70s Delta turret saw at home. There is nothing about the DeWalt saw that would make me consider parting with my Delta.


    John

  7. #7
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    Mike, sounds like you are going to have a new RAS project

  8. #8
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    I have a Dewalt/B&D 7790 as well. It is an upgrade over my old C'man I had, but it still doesn't hold 90 as well as I would like. I now use it like I used my C'man for, cutting down rough stock.

    Not to hijack the thread, but a couple questions for the experts (Mike?) that might help:
    1) I know negative hook blades are recommended, but I can't seem to get a table saw like smooth cut no matter what blade I try, which makes it tough to use for furniture quality cuts. The only negative hook blade I tried was an Oshlun. What's the best budget blade. Do you think my problem is blade related or something else?
    2) Are the Delta turret style really the cats meow? If so I'll keep an eye out for one at a good price, but if not I'll probably look to dump the RAS and get a miter saw.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    I have a Dewalt/B&D 7790 as well. It is an upgrade over my old C'man I had, but it still doesn't hold 90 as well as I would like. I now use it like I used my C'man for, cutting down rough stock.

    Not to hijack the thread, but a couple questions for the experts (Mike?) that might help:
    1) I know negative hook blades are recommended, but I can't seem to get a table saw like smooth cut no matter what blade I try, which makes it tough to use for furniture quality cuts. The only negative hook blade I tried was an Oshlun. What's the best budget blade. Do you think my problem is blade related or something else?
    2) Are the Delta turret style really the cats meow? If so I'll keep an eye out for one at a good price, but if not I'll probably look to dump the RAS and get a miter saw.
    I really like my Turret arm saw BUT you should be able to get a glass smooth cut from your Dewalt!

    I use Freud Ultimate cut off blades in my woodworking radial arm saw and do get a glass smooth finish to my cuts. You should be able to get as smooth if not smoother cuts from your radial arm saw as you do on your table saw. Just like a table saw a good quality blade makes a big difference. A Freud Ultimate Cut Off blade on a radial arm saw should out perform a combination blade on a table saw.

    The issue I had with my (well used) Dewalt was returning the arm to 90 after a miter. Once set on 90 my Dewalt stayed at 90 very well. On my saw it was just a matter of too much play in the arm rotation stop to reliably return the arm to 90 after a miter. On my Craftsman the arm had slop in it even when locked so I set the arm to be at 90 when the nose of the arm was pushed all the way to the left.

    My guess is that your issue is with your saws alignment. Once I learned to align a radial arm saw properly I was able to get accurate smooth cuts on my Craftsman (as long as I always pushed the nose of the saw to the left while making the cut. The arm locking on your Dewalt should render this point mute).

    1) Set the saw so the arm is perpendicular to the fence. I put a framing square flat on the table with one leg against the fence then pull out the carriage (with the saw not running) so that the tip of a single tooth on the blade just touches the corner of the square. I then pull the carriage all the way out without letting the blade spin at all so the selected tooth just touches the edge of the square all the way out.

    2) Set the blade perpendicular to the table. Remove the blade guard. With the carriage part way out set the framing square with one leg on the table and the second leg point straight up into the air. Adjust the motor until the blade is perpendicular to the table.

    3) Set the blade perpendicular to the fence - With the blade guard still removed put one leg of the framing square against the fence but about 2 inches off of the table with the other leg of the square poining out, perpendicular to the fence. Adjust the motor so the blade just touches the framing square on the front and the back. The blade itself is now perpendicular to the fence.

    That is all there is to it. You should have clean smooth cuts if you have a good sharp blade.

    If the bearing ways on the arm are worn you will not be able to perform task 1. A single tooth will not track just touching the edge of the framing square throughout the stroke and you will not get good clean cuts. The only way to fix this issue is to have the bearing ways reground on the arm which is not an easy process on the Dewalt I had.

    Usually radial arm saws do not cut well because the blade is not set to exactly 90 to the fence as described in step 3. The front and back of the saw blade will contact the stock in different places leaving saw marks on the stock after a cut. Once this is set properly the cut should not only be smooth but the saw itself will be much less likely to try to self feed.

    My experience with my well used Dewalt was that I could get glass smooth cuts once the saw was tuned. The problem I had with my Dewalt is I would have to perform step 1 every time I cut a miter and set the saw back to 90. Once set to 90 as in step 1 it would stay there until I cut another miter and then set the saw back to 90. Performing step 1 takes less than a minute and assures a good 90 cut. I usually perform step 1 on my RedStar and Walker Turner after making a miter cut and returning the arm to 90... but I never have to adjust the arm. I guess I just got into the habit of performing step 1 after returning the saw to 90 on my Dewalt and just do it automatically on my current saws.


    If you perform the above alignment procedure and still can not get smooth clean cuts I would check the blade runout:
    A) Put a dial gauge on the table with the tip just touching the blade inside the teeth. Slowly spin the blade one revolution. The pointer on the gauge should not move. IF the pointer moves you probably have a warped blade... throw it away. If this happens with a new unwarped blade you might need to regrind the collar on the arbor.
    B) With the dial gauge set to touch the bottom of the blade grab the arbor and pull the arbor up then push the arbor down. The needle on the dial gauge should not move. If the needle on the gauge does move any significant amount you probably need new bearings in the motor.



    I hope I was able to convey my thoughts distinctly. Please feel free to let me know if my directions are not clear.
    Last edited by Mike Schuch; 01-28-2015 at 2:00 PM.

  10. #10
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    Wow, thanks for all that Mike. I'll check out my saw when I get a chance and get back to you, via PM so I don't hijack this thread any more than I have already!

  11. #11
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    Great info here. Thanks!

  12. #12
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    I'm still running a fine tuned 12" Craftsman that I bought new in '73 or '74. I spent a few hours fine tuning it 20 years ago, and it hasn't needed to be touched for adjustment since then, but I don't do rough cutting with it. Keep everything lubed up, and the depth adjustment works just fine still. If there is any resistance in the crank, lube everything up, including the up, and down parts of the post. The rollers on the saw have eccentric centers. You can play with them, and get all the slop out, and have it cut perfectly straight. I use it for almost all my tenon shoulders.

    There are lots of better old ones, but if I was going to buy a new one, I'd get an Omga.

  13. #13
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    Tom,

    Thanks for mentioning the Omga -- I'd never heard of them. But it looks like the smallest model is 14". If so, that's a bit large for my needs. I still use the Craftsman 10" I bought in 1976, and I've kepted it tuned/aligned and it does a great job. I only use it for crosscutting -- no mitering or ripping due to other tools I have now to do the job. I've been wanting a Original Saw RAS for years. Reminds me of the old DeWalts, and I seem to recall hearing they use the DeWalt tooling/molds they acquired. Here is a link to the saw I've been eyeing.

    http://www.originalsaw.com/12contractorduty.html

    Update: Just found the Omga RM450, a 12" model. Looks like a really nice saw.
    Last edited by Lee Reep; 01-28-2015 at 5:52 PM.

  14. #14
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    ContDuty1Sm.jpg
    Those are nice saws. The design looks very close to the Dewalt GA saw I had at one time. There are three levers on the column. The top lever is the elevation crank. The next one down is the column lock. The third one down is the index stop lever. The index stop lever rotates around an arbor that is split into 2 pieces. Each piece screws into a shroud on the column. To adjust the arm to 90 you would unscrew one half of the arbor then screw in the other half of the arbor to tighten the lever back up. The arbor halves were then locked in place with set screws. I don't know if the problem with my saw was that this lever was just too worn from years of abuse or what but I could never get all of the slack out of that lever. Because the lever had slack it could never be counted on to return to arm back to an exact index (45 or 90). So I always had to check the arm alignment every time after moving the arm to a different position. Maybe new saws don't have this issue but the indexing mechanism looks the same as the one that always caused me troubles.

    PICT8052.jpg IMG_0611.jpg
    My Redstar and Walker Turner both use big fat tapered pins that fall into tapered slots for the indexing. The pins are in eccentric shrouds for adjusting the stops which does a very nice job for fine tuning.

    The nicest radial arm saw I have ever seen is a Northfield Unipoint... but I have never actually used one!
    unipoint.gif
    Last edited by Mike Schuch; 01-28-2015 at 7:57 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schuch View Post
    ....The third one down is the index stop lever. ... (Snip)... Maybe new saws don't have this issue but the indexing mechanism looks the same as the one that always caused me troubles.
    That column has a thick ring/collar welded to it. The collar has three precision female v-shaped cut-outs. That third lever has a male v-shaped piece of metal at a slightly larger angle. Engaging the lever into one of the female notches positively locks it into a 45 left, 90, or 45 right. Because of the v-shape it must seat until there is no play. If the parts ever wear, it just means the male v will go deeper into the female. Really pretty simple. The key is you must adjust the arm so that when it engages, the arm is 90 to your fence. Took this photo of a Dewalt from ebay. You can see the three indents.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Comments made here are my own and, according to my children, do not reflect the opinions of any other person... anywhere, anytime.

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