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Thread: Squaring wood without a tablesaw or jointer

  1. #1
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    Squaring wood without a tablesaw or jointer

    I'm moving out of my apartment and into a real house with a garage. I can buy the power tools I have been lusting after. The trouble is fitting everything I need into my $2500 budget. I was originally going to buy a decent table saw (used PM66, unisaw, or a new grizzly cabinet saw), a bench-top planer, and a dust collector. This would max out my budget. Unfortunately it leaves me without a router (and table) for a while, but I know you can square stock fairly easily with that setup.

    I then started doing some more research into the idea of a bandsaw centric shop. Based on my what I like to make (solid furniture, decorative boxes, lathe projects, and round carving), I decided that may be a better choice to skip the table saw and build my new shop around a large-ish bandsaw. With the same budget I could get a decent quality 14" bandsaw (or bigger if I buy Grizzly), upgraded fence, router with plunge attachment, router table, and a good bench-top planer. This would also leave me with enough money left over to buy some extra blades and router bits. I know there is no dust collector, but I figured I could plug in my large shopvac for the time being.

    This setup has me feeling like I could do most everything I need. I have never ripped on a bandsaw, but I heard that with a good blade and fence it's plenty accurate. I can't cut dados using the saw, but that's what the router is for. For the times where I need to cut sheet goods I can always break out the straightedge and circular saw, which isn't the most convenient, but it's still an option. One thing I'm concerned about is squaring stock... which brings us the entire purpose of this post... I was thinking I could flatten boards with the thickness planer, then use the router table to joint an edge (referencing off the flat face). I could then take it to the bandsaw and rip the other edge parallel, and then return it to the router table to clean it up. Does that sound like it would yield good results? Or should I spend a little less on everything and also buy a cheap table saw or jointer? Maybe even a tracksaw?

    I just want to mention it isn't my preference to buy a bunch of cheap stuff. I always have preferred quality over quantity. I would rather buy the best quality (I can afford) of everything I need to get started, and then add more good tools to the shop over time as I save the money.

  2. #2
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    Have a browse of Jim Tolpin's excellent "The new traditional woodworker".

    He's a professional cabinet maker, prolific author and accomplished teacher.
    Pay special attention to the power tools he has retained, over the years.

    http://www.jimtolpin.com/

    There's a review, at Shannon Rodgers blog.

    If there is a woodworking co-op or school nearby, they might allow you shop privileges.
    That would be cheaper, and keep floorspace clear.

    To cut to the chase, I'm an advocate of buying ONLY the lumber you need for
    a given project, and having your supplier flatten it to near your desired dimensions.
    Last edited by Jim Matthews; 01-28-2015 at 3:52 PM.

  3. #3
    You may want to take a look at this tread.

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...-of-importance

  4. #4
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    If you plan to do any sort of cabinet work then you will want a TS. If not, you could go the BS route. I use my BS a lot, but if I had to choose between one or the other, I'd keep the TS w/o question. It's just a far more versatile machine, at least for me. And you made no mention of a jointer. How are you going to get stock flat on one face before using the planer? You could make a sled for it, but that get's old in a hurry. Why not consider buying a used TS, BS, and jointer, and planer, too, if you can find one, or go the new lunch box planer route if you can't. With luck, you can still stay within your budget. If you can find a used J/P, like an Inca you'll have a great little machine with a 10-1/4" jointer and planer that takes up no more space than a lunch box planer. They sometimes come up for sale here, usually for $750 or less. I've had one for 30 years and have made hundreds of projects with it from small to impressively large. My friend bought two used Unisaws last year; he paid less than $600 for each. Used 14" Delta type BS's are usually available for less than $500 and you can put a riser block on it for 12" resaw capacity. You're still well under $2500 and can buy a new combo router package and make your own table for less than $400 or so all in. Still money left over. Or if you want a big bandsaw and no TS, buy a Grizzly brand spanking new. You'll get a pretty nice one delivered to your door for around $1200 or so. Lots of options.


    John

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    If you plan to do any sort of cabinet work then you will want a TS. If not, you could go the BS route. I use my BS a lot, but if I had to choose between one or the other, I'd keep the TS w/o question. It's just a far more versatile machine, at least for me. And you made no mention of a jointer. How are you going to get stock flat on one face before using the planer? You could make a sled for it, but that get's old in a hurry. Why not consider buying a used TS, BS, and jointer, and planer, too, if you can find one, or go the new lunch box planer route if you can't. With luck, you can still stay within your budget. If you can find a used J/P, like an Inca you'll have a great little machine with a 10-1/4" jointer and planer that takes up no more space than a lunch box planer. They sometimes come up for sale here, usually for $750 or less. I've had one for 30 years and have made hundreds of projects with it from small to impressively large. My friend bought two used Unisaws last year; he paid less than $600 for each. Used 14" Delta type BS's are usually available for less than $500 and you can put a riser block on it for 12" resaw capacity. You're still well under $2500 and can buy a new combo router package and make your own table for less than $400 or so all in. Still money left over. Or if you want a big bandsaw and no TS, buy a Grizzly brand spanking new. You'll get a pretty nice one delivered to your door for around $1200 or so. Lots of options.


    John
    Yeah I forgot to mention I was planning to use a plywood sled and hot glue... which I guess does sound pretty tedious.

  6. #6
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    I could easily live with a bandsaw, jointer and planer if all were of a scale that would allow me to do larger stock preparation. Any stock you run across a tablesaw should be milled and yes, I know that many people either don't face joint or just run 2-by construction lumber straight through the tablesaw. There are also a lot of reported tablesaw accidents. The tablesaw's feed path does not deviate, if your stock does there will be issues.

    One great thing about a bandsaw is that it is so much more tolerant of irregular stock. This means you can break down parts to over-sized dimensions and then mill them on the jointer and planer reserving hand tools for final dimensions and the bulk of your joinery work. This will vary depending on what you are making; dowels, biscuits, glue, a quarter ton of clamp pressure and a brad nailer can be substituted for traditional joinery (<== that's supposed to be funny).

    Certainly mitered box corners, finger-joints and so forth are faster on the tablesaw but, a lot of my shop time is NOT spent in a hurry. Don't get me wrong, I am very tablesaw-centric but, I wouldn't give up either of my bandsaws on a bet. That is, if it was a forced no tablesaw or a forced no bandsaw, the tablesaw would go.

    If you go with a bandsaw as your anchor tool, don't mess around with a small saw; think 18" - 20". You need this tool to be solid, accurate and repeatable if it is to take the place of the more common precision wood shop workhorse. Blades should be easily changeable and plentiful in variety. There are just as many cool jigs and sleds for bandsaws as for tablesaws but I would not consider a hobby level bandsaw as my shop anchor. All this is, of course, worth only what the pixels cost to type it.

    The reason the forum works is that you get a lot of "opinions" from a lot of people who all do things differently. I don't just go high dollar on tools and trust that they are the best by any means. However, I have paid my penance for buying tools that are "almost" good enough to do the job. When faced with a budget crisis, I go as cheap as possible with the intention of upgrading when the idea proves its validity. My general rule of thumb is that if what I want is near 60% of what I should really get, I wait and save my pennies for the "good" one . YMMV.
    Last edited by glenn bradley; 01-28-2015 at 5:15 PM.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  7. #7
    I would invest in a planer, jointer and a tablesaw right off the bat. I picked up an 8 wallace jointer and a 12 inch powermatic planer for $750. Both machines needed a tuneup but they run great after a couple days of work and they will most likely outlast me. For the table saw I went with a new grizzly. If you don't have both a planer and a jointer you will be either severely limited in what you can make or the quality will suffer greatly. You can get a jointer quality edge on the table saw but unless you are only going to use 3 inch wide boards you won't be able to face joint them, and that is very important.

  8. #8
    I think the tablesaw offers more in the way of joinery but a bandsaw does more for breaking down parts and for curved work.
    A bandsaw can do joinery, and so long as you can use a handplane (or in same cases the planer) you can get a nice finish on the work as easily as the tablesaw.

    I would agree with others that the real issue is the jointer, or lack there-of. For edges or for narrow boards you can build a sled for the bandsaw or even tablesaw that will 'joint' the boards, but for wider boards you would probably want to go hand-plane or planer sled. With a good bandsaw and blade, you can 'face joint' in widths greater than a table-saw by essentially re-sawing on a sled (check out rough log sleds). You could also check out flattening boards with a router sled (google it, lots of hits).

    But if you want to avoid all this 'sled' business, and/or you work with wider boards much, I would check out a jointer. Maybe a J/P combo.

    and if you like the idea of a 'bandsaw central shop', go with it. See if it works for you. Its a bit more romantic than a table-saw centric shop.
    Last edited by Tyler Keniston; 01-28-2015 at 5:58 PM.

  9. #9
    Also as far as sheet goods, there are some cool ideas that involve easy-to-store sacrificial cutting tables and a shop build circular saw track. If you subscribe to FWW, check out "a circular saw in the furniture shop."

  10. #10
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    Quoting Glenn Bradley: "There are also a lot of reported tablesaw accidents. The tablesaw's feed path does not deviate, if your stock does there will be issues."

    That is one of the clearest messages i've ever read. Well put!!

    earl

  11. $2,500? You've got plenty of funds if you go used.

    Table Saw - I paid $250 for my craftsman 113 saw (and it was overpriced at that)
    Bandsaw - $250 for a Delta 14"
    Planer - $399 for a Dewalt 734, new in a box
    Jointer - not too hard to find an 8" single phase model for ~$700 or less
    Drill press - $100
    Router - Dunno. I got a deal on a Freud 3 hp for around $150, added a Peachtree fence, and built a table out of MDF, so rounding up... $300?
    I'd spend the rest on hand tools and a harbor freight 2 hp DC with a Wynn filter.

    These aren't "high end" machines, but none of them are truly low quality. They're more than workable. As I'm sure you know, $2,500 in the new market buys you a mid-priced bandsaw or table saw and nothing else. Remove the jointer from the list above and you've got my shop. Not flashy, but I've yet to run across anything I couldn't do. (Caveat - I use hand tools for a lot of things.) Just food for thought.

    Edit: And to answer the question you actually asked, I'd be more than ok going down to a bandsaw, drill press, lunchbox planer, and a good box of hand tools. If you're even considering it, you'd probably do fine with this method. Do read Tolpin's New Traditional Woodworker, though. Great book, and it speaks directly to what you're asking.
    Last edited by Will Boulware; 01-28-2015 at 8:09 PM.

  12. #12
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    Pretty much every project I have ever done has started at the jointer. The jointer does one thing and does it well... it gives you a smooth FLAT face to work with. A planer does not give you a smooth FLAT face like it name implies. A planer (should be called a thinknesser) provides a board with a uniform thickness. If the original board is not straight it will not be straight after running it through the planer.

    20 years ago I bought a 6" jointer from Harbor Freight for $159. I used the snot out of that jointer until about a year ago when I got my fathers Jet 8" jointer and sold the 6" to a friend for $100. The 8" jet is nice but the 6" HF jointer did the job so well that I could never justify upgrading. If you have to even start with a 4" jointer you are going to be better off than no jointer at all.

    I also can't imagine a bandsaw centric shop. A table saw gives a smooth straight cut... A bandsaw gives a rough approximation of such a cut. I had a Jet 18" band saw and sold it. I hardly ever used it and it just took up too much shop space. Cabinet tables saws are very nice to have BUT a well tuned contractors saw can be a very good substitute. My father paid $40 for his used Rockwell contractors table saw. After he tuned it up it cut every bit as well as my Powermatic cabinet saw.

    With a little patients and a lot of Craigslist searching you should be able to outfit a shop quite nicely for $2500. My reccomendation:
    1) Used contractors table saw.
    2) Used jointer 6" or 4" if you can't score a good deal on a 6".
    3) Lunch box planer.
    4) A good router in the 1hp range. Then build yourself a nice router table. A 3hp is nice for a router table but they are too big and bulky for hand held use.
    5) A good Biesemeyer or Vega fence. A good fence will do wonders for a contractor saw.

    Eventually a good deal on a used cabinet table saw will come around and you will want to jump on it. You will be able to sell the contractors saw for what you paid for it and move your good fence to the cabinet saw (so keep the original contractor saw fence). Same with the jointer.
    Last edited by Mike Schuch; 01-28-2015 at 8:35 PM.

  13. A table saw gives a smooth straight cut... A bandsaw gives a rough approximation of such a cut.
    Style of work somewhat dictates whether tablesaw features trump bandsaw features. The average tablesaw and tablesaw user probably do yield more accurate clean cuts than average bandsaw/user; however a well-tuned bandsaw can yield some pretty amazing cuts that can be cleaned with not much more than a couple swipes with a hand plane or sander, and in addition can make curved cuts and resaw. Not that this helps the poster seeing as we're talking budget here, but I recently tried out a carbide tipped bandsaw blade on a 14" and with consistent feed rate, it really is not much different than tablesaw quality. A bit slower though.

    Not saying I like the bandsaw better than the TS, just saying one could get buy with one and still have clean cuts with relative ease.

  14. #14
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    OK, lets say you build your bandsaw centric shop, and just for giggles get a decent used $200 tablesaw, for those few times you might need it. After a year or so, you will know if you really need it or not. If not, sell it for what you paid, and lose nothing.
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Potter View Post
    OK, lets say you build your bandsaw centric shop, and just for giggles get a decent used $200 tablesaw, for those few times you might need it. After a year or so, you will know if you really need it or not. If not, sell it for what you paid, and lose nothing.
    Ganging on that approach, you can buy a used Craftsman cast iron TS in my area for $100 - $150 nearly every day. I bought one new over 30 years ago and I still have it. I prefer my Unisaw, but I made dozens of projects with that saw and it can still do very good work. Which comes back to the whole point of buying used equipment. If you are patient you can outfit a whole shop with used equipment for a fraction of new. A lot of people don't want to clean, repair, rehab old equipment, or they just gotta have everything all at once. That's fine; that's why new equipment is made. For the rest of us, there are some great bargains to be had from time to time.

    John

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