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Thread: got new jointer plainer with rusted table / anti-kickback

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Upstate NY
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    3,789
    On the one hand, a rusty $5,000 machine is unacceptable. I have had a number of cosmetically challenged parts replaced.

    On the other hand, we haven't seen any pictures of rust. The only posted picture looked fine.

    On the third hand, I spent years in customer service. I got several calls a week from people who didn't bother to drill pilot holes and then wanted me to pay then hundreds of dollars compensation because they twisted the heads off brass screws. I can sympathize with guy who yelled at the OP if there was not really anything wrong; might have been his third call that day like that. (when people demanded to speak to my superior, I put them on hold and then just abandoned it.)

    And finally, the SMC policy is entirely reasonable.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,495
    I have no skin in this game, so I thought about not posting anything... but what the heck... I'll follow Wade's "on the one hand" format.

    On the one hand, what Erik is saying is totally reasonable. From what we see in this thread, that machine looks totally fine and functional and IMO, the OP has pretty unreasonable expectations. That rust is literally nothing... But OP, please post more pictures if it's worse than what you sent. Some of my machines look worse than that, and I try to maintain them well...

    Also, none of us know how the OP's interaction went with the MM guy. We are only hearing one side. Maybe the OP was hostile but due to his expectations, thought hostility was excusable behavior and expected the MM rep to be a punching bag. Lots of consumers don't see human beings on the other end of the phone. Maybe MM rep eventually cracked at under rudeness. Or maybe the OP was a perfect gentleman and the MM guy forgot to take his Xanax and was the problem. We do not know, so IMO, that piece of this discussion should be tabled. Screaming and yelling is inappropriate regardless of whether you're the customer or the rep, or whether you feel you've been mistreated. We're adults, not toddlers.

    On the other hand... MM should understand that when they chose to go into business selling directly to consumers (DtoC), they entered a different ball game. Consumers are buying with pretty different motivations. There isn't a profit motive- this is purely a purchase for personal enjoyment. It's an emotional experience, and it's a lot of money that you can't write off on your taxes. Emotionally, it really is similar to buying a car for a consumer because it's an emotional decision. MM needs to undertsand that and approach their DtoC line of business with that mentality. So Erik, all due respect (and btw I love that you are chiming in here rather that doing the typical "veil of corporate silence" thing), your comparison to industry is unfair- you guys need to understand the fundamental difference between your consumer customers and your industry customers and treat them differently. It's just the way it is- it's not a "right or wrong" thing.

    As a result, consumers cost more to deal with. You should build higher customer support costs into your direct-to-consumer pricing to protect your margins. I hate customer service so i can sympathize with having to deal with unreasonable people. That's why I work in an office. I would get fired on the first day of a CS job, which is why I chose not to go into that line of work! MM has chosen to enter this market, so this is what comes with it. It's a game of acting like you care about the customers emotions, ultimately because there is money in it for you via referral and repeat business. Should this guy get a full replacement at no cost? of course not- that would be bonkers given how minor this problem is. But how about sending him a set of new knives for his machine for free and a heart-felt apology? Doing so would have avoided this thread, which has perhaps done damage to your sales (impossible to know).

    Look at Grizzly- yes, a totally different target customer than MM. They are known for low prices (and as a result, lesser, but generally passable quality) but amazing customer support, because they understand that consumers are a PITA. If they had low prices and customer support not built on an understanding of who the customer is and why he/she is buying, do you think they would be where they are now?

    Anyway, my $.02, worth what you paid.

  3. #48
    Peter, I agree with you that we should all be trying to satisfy ALL expectations of the customer and you are also correct: None of us (myself included) know precisely who or what got said between the OP and MM managment, so that doesn't really matter.

    For anyone who is reading this, my best suggestion is to communicate as much as possible with your rep on the front end. I have not had many completely unsatisfied customers over the years but the ones I have, almost invariably if I go back and look, we never really spoke on the phone before the sale. They just gave me a credit card on the first call or it was string of emails that were more about negotiating a price or specs than, "Here are my expectations and plans. How would answer these?". What you can't get via email is a sense for what is important to the customerand in my experience, a two-way dialogue is what creates a happy customer. If I know what your concerns are, we can address them. But the reality is that customers "assume" some things and we reps "assume" other things and sometimes, that creates situations. Regrettably.

    In the past, I have done things like comp customers some tooling or accessories for their time and trouble to fix cosmetic things like this or perhaps offer them a discount on future purchases. We work together and find a solution. I wish the OP would update us on how the machines are actually working out from a functionality standpoint.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Central WI
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    The rust should have been WAY more severe than what showed in the picture to deserve this much press. Dave

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Pleasant Grove, UT
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    1,503
    Quote Originally Posted by David T gray View Post
    been so busy had to move my sister out of her house anyways here are pics of my brand new rusted minimax fs-41 there are also 4 3x4'' spots that had rust on them but i cleaned them when i got the machine so pre stained and pre rusted.



    Attachment 307190
    pshaw!! That's not rust. That's blood, from the gnome techs who checked it before shipping!

    They were Greek gnomes. In Italy. Working on machinery.
    Last edited by John Sanford; 03-03-2015 at 6:10 PM.
    It came to pass...
    "Curiosity is the ultimate power tool." - Roy Underhill
    The road IS the destination.

  6. #51
    even if there was no rust i would still be upset the machine is not the same one that is viewed from your pdf i bought these tools for my father to be able to use there is no way at 77 years hes going to be able to open the table on the j/p without my help or without that spring.
    Last edited by Chris Padilla; 03-03-2015 at 7:41 PM.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by David T gray View Post
    even if there was no rust i would still be upset the machine is not the same one that is viewed from your pdf i bought these tools for my father to be able to use there is no way at 77 years hes going to be able to open the table on the j/p without my help or without that spring.
    You don't mention it not being the machine you thought you were getting until post #41.

    Actually I just watched the video and there do look to be springs on the jointer tables. Yours doesn't have that? Erik?!
    Last edited by Chris Padilla; 03-03-2015 at 7:41 PM.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by David T gray View Post
    even if there was no rust i would still be pissed the machine is not the same one that is viewed from your pdf i bought these tools for my father to be able to use there is no way at 77 years hes going to be able to open the table on the j/p without my help or without that spring.
    I actually talked to the US business unit manager about this particular point earlier today because I wanted to make sure there was not some change to the machine that I was unaware of, since we obviously don't want to be misinforming customers. There were one or two photos in the highlight brochure which showed the tables from an earlier FS35 Smart, which did indeed have the helper springs. I brought this to his attention and my understanding is that they are correcting it now. The machines that really do need the helper springs are the bigger and heavier FS41 Elite and the FS41 Elite-S, not the Classics.

    Honestly, this is the first time in 10+ years of selling jointer/planers that I have ever heard a concern about being able to lift the tables. That's not to say your dad's concern isn't valid. Just that I have a number of owners his age and have never heard of that issue before.

    Tell you what, David. You're in Austin, right? So am I. Why don't we set up a time where I can meet you and your dad at your shop? Then, he can show me what his concerns are in regards to operating the machine and I'll be glad to perhaps show him a better or easier way to operate it. Again, I have a number of owners at least his age that operate their machines just fine so perhaps it's just a methodology-thing. We can find out for sure and the get him using the machines like old hat. Would that help you?

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Wade Lippman View Post
    ...Actually I just watched the video and there do look to be springs on the jointer tables. Yours doesn't have that? Erik?!
    Wade, the only MM J/P's that have helper springs are the FS41 Elite and the FS41 Elite-S. Not the Classics. We did use helper springs on the older FS35's (no longer made) because they had a pretty heavy table for their size but not the current Classics. Again, I have never had a customer tell me in all these years that they "couldn't lift the tables" or anything to that effect, regardless of which machine it is. That would be pretty self-defeating if it was the case, LOL.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
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    15,332
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Tell you what, David. You're in Austin, right? So am I. Why don't we set up a time where I can meet you and your dad at your shop? Then, he can show me what his concerns are in regards to operating the machine and I'll be glad to perhaps show him a better or easier way to operate it. Again, I have a number of owners at least his age that operate their machines just fine so perhaps it's just a methodology-thing. We can find out for sure and the get him using the machines like old hat. Would that help you?

    Erik
    Outstanding.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

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