The great Chosera soaking debate

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have always read, and always advised that Chosera stones were splash-and-go and do not need to be soaked. I have always thought soaking was bad for them and any other high-end stone because it can break down the binding agent. Well today I got a brand new Chosera 3,000 and to my great surprise there was a note inside the box that said to soak it 15 to 20 minutes before use. WHAT????

I wrote the seller to ask if that was something he puts in the box or if the note actually came from Chosera, but I have not heard back yet. I will say one thing- these are very thirsty stones. I run them under tap water to wet them and they soak up a lot of water just doing that. I find that I have to spritz them a lot. I never soak them. Who knows, maybe I will try and see what happens.

Has anyone else bought a Chosera stone and seen this note? (image below). This is the first for me, and I strongly suspect, especially since it's written only in english, that the seller did this on their own.

Chosera2.jpg

[Mike Brady]

I have always read, and always advised that Chosera stones were splash-and-go and do not need to be soaked. I have always thought soaking was bad for them and any other high-end stone because it can break down the binding agent. Well today I got a brand new Chosera 3,000 and to my great surprise there was a note inside the box that said to soak it 15 to 20 minutes before use. WHAT????

I wrote the seller to ask if that was something he puts in the box or if the note actually came from Chosera, but I have not heard back yet. I will say one thing- these are very thirsty stones. I run them under tap water to wet them and they soak up a lot of water just doing that. I find that I have to spritz them a lot. I never soak them. Who knows, maybe I will try and see what happens.

Has anyone else bought a Chosera stone and seen this note? (image below). This is the first for me, and I strongly suspect, especially since it's written only in english, that the seller did this on their own.

Chosera2.jpg

This goes to my comments in the other thread where the round stones were being discussed. To me it sounds like the maker of the stones is try to reflect the blame back onto the consumer. I don't know of anything similar happening to other brands of water stones. I have read else where that the stones need to be "dried evenly". What does that mean exactly? Mine came with zero instructions.

[Jim Koepke]

Mine, not Chosera, get dropped in water until the bubbles stop.

A stone that is in danger of falling apart without high maintenance is not really something for my shop.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

I soak my Choseras regularly (though I often just let a douse of water sit on them for a few minutes first instead of soaking). I think they work best with a 5-10 minute soak, but I wouldn't call them particularly thirsty stones either (though they do need more then just a spritz).

Anyway, there is no danger in soaking them. My understanding has always been that they are intended to be used after a short soak. What you ARE NOT supposed to do is leave them in the water for extended periods of time, because of the magnesium binder. I don't remember what they say the max is...maybe not more than 20 or 30 minutes or something like that. I would recommend 5-10 minutes before use. There's not need to soak them any longer then that, and 5-10 I'm sure won't harm them.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I did get a response from the seller and he said the note comes from Naniwa. It looks like damage control to me. Other Chosera stones did not have this note. I am dead positive these were originally advertised as splash-and-go.

Well as for drying evenly, I have said this for any stone- they need to dry slowly and on all sides. I always stand my stones on edge and have even put them in a dish drying rack to dry so they dry evenly. I dry them in a dark area that has airflow but not air conditioning.

Certainly there seems to be an issue if Naniwa is saying their stones craze. Anyway, they are without a doubt the best cutting stones I have found yet. I love them. Another thought on the matter- my house stays a constant 80 to 84 degrees year round. We only use the A/C if we have visitors not used to the heat. The windows are open year round. Humidity is fairly high so my stones always dry slow.

I am way beyond having what I need and this is really now just part of my hobby of sharpening. Any future stone purchases are really just satisfying curiosity and experimenting, so don't think I am taking up for any one brand. So far I have found the Shaptons to be nearly equal but the Choseras are most impressive.

[Tom M King]

On my portable setup, I use a dish draining tray to let water run into a trashcan under the table. I just pour water on any stone until it looks right with a water bottle. I can't tell you how much I put on any stone, but I have developed a pretty good feel by look for how much water to put on plaster for repairs, so a lot of it comes from that and is very similar. To dry, the stones just sit with one end raised on the back edge of the drain board. I like the Chosera 3,000 as a middle stone better than any others I've tried. I'm sure more than a few of us enjoy the process of trying different stones.

[Derek Cohen]

...there was a note inside the box that said to soak it 15 to 20 minutes before use.

What you ARE NOT supposed to do is leave them in the water for extended periods of time, because of the magnesium binder. I don't remember what they say the max is...maybe not more than 20 or 30 minutes or something like that.

Well as for drying evenly, I have said this for any stone- they need to dry slowly and on all sides.

Good grief!

I do not have the patience for this. I do not want to spend 20-30 minutes soaking stones before that can be used. I do not want to wait 20-30 minutes while I wait for stones to soak because I removed them from water while I worked, and then needed to resharpen a blade that had become dull in the meantime. I also do not want to have to treat my stones as if they were fragile and vulnerable to falling apart because I looked at them the wrong way.

Is this for real?

Either choose a stone that really needs a spritz, such as Shapton. Or get a stone that does not require any lube, such as Spyderco (although I do spritz them a sprinkle of soapy water).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm with Derek on this one. but I know, since I own (and like) Chosera's, that they do not require anything near the amount of care that is being suggested.

Mine (800 and 3000) work perfectly with just a spritz, the 3000 is slightly more thirsty than the 800, so sometimes I add a little water while I work, but I've never needed more than that. since I don't soak them, they require zero extra care really, I just wipe off the remaining water and swarf when I'm done like I would any other stone.

The 800 I don't use a lot because I use diamonds for that level, but the 3000 was used (until recently) as my final stone for everything and it is still I think the best water stone I have ever used, it has no cracks or crazing, but it is slightly spotted, which I think it had before also. so I'd suggest just use the stone and enjoy it, if for whatever reason it soaks more water than mine does, just put a heavy splash on 10 seconds before use and add a little if you need it. once it wears in a little it will be ready to go more quickly than before.

[Chris Griggs]

G
Is this for real?

Derek

Hi Derek. No this is not for real. I think you misunderstood my 20-30 minute comment...or I communicated poorly. They don't need to soak that long. What I was saying is that you risk damaging them by leaving them in the water too long, and I think the max amount of time they say is somewhere in that neighborhood. I don't remember exactly what it is, the point is simply that they can't be permasoaked, whereas something like a sigma can be left in water seemingly indefinitely.

As far a use. Yes I find they do need more than just a spritz, and you are correct that they are indeed not as convenient as diamonds or spydercoa, but the discussion in this thread I guess has made it sound like they are high maintenance, which is not the case at all.

What I do a lot of time, is when I get into the shop I pull them out and put them on my sharpening tray. I then put a dousing of water on them, enough so that it pools on top. That's enough to go straight to work. Again, IIRC they are a little thirstier than shaptons, but they don't need anything more then a good splash of water and in my experience, that water will stay pooled up on them as opposed to being sucked in. That said, I do find they are a little nicer to use if I either let the water sit on top of them for a few minutes before use, or if I submerge them for a 5-10 minutes. Its not a requirement though, it just makes them feel a little tiny bit smoother. The other thing I have noticed is that within a given shop session, once they have been soaked or doused once, I can go back to them, and use them with a minimal amount of water and the effect of the soak remains.... i guess they hold water for a while.

Anyway, that probably still all sounds complex, my only point is that, I find them to be very low maintenance as far as water stones are concerned and while its not unusual for me to drop them in the water for few minutes when I first enter the shop, its in no way a requirement. They work beautifully with just a splash, and I'll just as often just, splash -> flatten -> hone -> done. Also, in 3 years of using a Chosera 800 and Naniwa Snow White as my go-to waterstones, I've never felt any need to be any more careful with them than any other water stone. Though I do agree, Shaptons require a little less water, and things that require little or no lubricant or flattening such as diamonds or Sypdercos are certainly less maintenance.


Hope that clarifies things.

[george wilson]

I am sticking with my diamond stones for initial bevel establishment(if chipped),then the black and last the white Spyderco ceramic stones. They will last forever unless I drop them. They are always ready for immediate use with a little squirt of very slightly soapy water. They don't get enough water on them to start rusting my chisels. I had this happen many years ago when experimenting with water stones. Somehow,even with careful wiping,I got some slight rust on the chisels.

[Chris Griggs]

I am sticking with my diamond stones for initial bevel establishment(if chipped),then the black and last the white Spyderco ceramic stones. They will last forever unless I drop them. They are always ready for immediate use with a little squirt of very slightly soapy water. They don't get enough water on them to start rusting my chisels. I had this happen many years ago when experimenting with water stones. Somehow,even with careful wiping,I got some slight rust on the chisels.

I'm finally coming around with you on this George. As much as I like water stones in use, I have so very little time in the shop and so little extra space to keep the wet stones away from thing I don't want wet that I'm using them very little these days. If the tool is 01 or vintage I go straight for my Washita and HTA, which keep I out at all times...even with A2 and V11 I'll often go for the oil stones, even though I do find it more difficult to get a good edge on those steels with oil stones. I'm not doing enough woodworking (really any) lately to justify buying an new sharpening equipment, but if life settles down a bit and I get time to start woodworking with regularity again, I've pretty much decided to go the with diamonds and/or Spydercos, so that I have something to use that doesn't require flattening, doesn't require much lubricant, and doesn't care what kind of steel I put on it.

[Brian Holcombe]

I like diamonds for the initial grind as well.

I use the Snow White (naniwa) with a quick soak and then a splash once some swarf builds up. It performs better for me doing this than it did with a longer soak, so total time is about 3 minutes or less.

George, I wipe down the blades then spray with camellia oil.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Well I do love my Shaptons, but they don't cut as quickly as the Choseras. I am now awaiting a 5k to arrive and the Shaptons will get some rest, except the 16k which I hone my straight razor on regularly.

As for the diamond stones, I have every DMT grit made, thanks to a great eBay deal from the widow of a deceased woodworker. I used to go to them to set bevels and repair edges or flatten backs. These Choseras cut so quickly that I may go just to the waterstones. I find that diamond stones leave a very hard to remove scratch pattern. The reason is obvious- the diamonds stay put and each diamond is always scratching the same scratch line. Waterstones leave more of a matte finish that is easier to remove with the next grit up. (I know you know this, but just for the sake of anyone else reading this.) Now that the Chosera 400 has shown her stuff, I am probably going to have less use for the diamond stones, but they will certainly have their place.

By the way, I've heard the stories about Shaptons bowing and let me tell you- the glass ones will actually swell in the middle. Yes sir. I have had it happen a lot. I can only guess that they are releasing water around the edges quicker than in the middle, and so the middle swells only enough that when you flatten them they will start abrading first in the middle. It's hardly noticeable except when you go to flatten them and it is clear that the middle is higher, and I have taken dead flat stones that I flattened, let dry, then just honed a straight razor- not much use there at all- and lo and behold, the stone was high in the middle when I went to clean it on the DMT. Yup. Not much, but the stone will start abrading first in the middle, and it's not the DMT being out of flat because I took three other DMT stones (Not dia-flats like the first, but still diamond stones that should be flat) and the same thing happened. Just yesterday this happened to the point that I could actually feel it when I went to hone my razor, and so I put it on the DMT Dia-Flat and it was very high in the middle. I even checke the DMT just to be sure and it's dead-flat. So I guess all stones have their issues.

I have not tried the Spydercos. I need to check those out. I'm afraid for now it will have to wait until the next bonus. I also want to get a blackstone for my Tormek because I am sharpening machine planer blades for a workshop and I hear the blackstone is better for carbide blades. That's nearly $200. Fortunately the shop is giving me a pile of blades to sharpen this week and I am hoping it pays for a new stone. In fact, I've started sharpening knives and tools on the side, and here's how bad of a "sharpaholic" I am- I am only doing it to get more money to buy more sharpening stuff. I need therapy.

[Everett Langel]

I've used Choseras for several years and find that they benefit from a 5 minute soak, but there's no benefit from soaking them longer. They're OK as a splash-and-go, but a little soak helps them perform better.

The Chosera 5K is the exception. The best course with this stone is to box it back up and return it for a refund, if possible. Mine, like many, developed severe crazing after perhaps two uses. The recipe for this stone is just... wrong. Not willing to entrust my razors to this cracked-up mess, I put the Suehiro Rika 5K in its spot and haven't regretted it.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Well darn. I have a 5k in the mail probably about 1/2 way from Japan at the moment! Well if it dies a cruel death I can always chop it up and make a 5k nagura!