My very first neander dovetail - go ahead and laugh, I can take it

[David Ragan]

I salute you laying bare your work.... In order to get help, other folks need to know where we are

You sure they your *first* try?

[Frederick Skelly]

I too numbered my practice joints to track progress. Im to the point where mine are "decent", meaning that I can use them on actual projects. Yours look fine for a first attempt - certainly no worse than mine was!

You will find it becomes addicting. Theres a deep satisfaction in doing it by hand.

Id encourage you to watch a variety of videos to see different techniques. I switched from coping out the waste to chiseling it out and, for me, it results in a better joint. Surprisingly, it is quicker than youd think. But Im not anywhere close to a 3 minute dovetail like Frank and dont ever expect to be.

Enjoy the journey. It IS worth the time and effort, from what Ive seen so far.
Fred

[David Dalzell]

I don't remember what my first set of dovetails looked. But I have heard that truly horrifying experiences tend to get blocked out of ones memory.

[Brett Robson]

I've cut a lot of dovetails and from time to time, still make some that look like that! Yours look much better than any of my early attempts!

[Bruce Haugen]

See, the difference between your first set and my first set was that the Tage Frid books came out when I did mine and he showed how to glue a sliver into my gigantic mistakes so they wouldn't look so bad. BTDT, got the t-shirt. Another difference was that there was no internet so I could offer my first attempts for public inspection.

[Jim Matthews]

Nothing wrong with your saw or chisel technique.
You've got no broken pins, or blown out chips.

You cut neatly to the lines, it's just one of them was
out of square.

FWIW - I use the board that will be fitted as my marking guide.
(As shown in John Bullar's excellent video, mentioned above.)


That way, if the board undulates a little - the corresponding mark should match.

I would guess that if you glued and clamped this attempt together,
it would be light-tight.

One last note - I switched to marking with a 'hooked' paring knife instead of pencil.
It makes registry of the chisel much easier.

[Shawn Pixley]

As all have said, we have been there with our first dovetails. I can now manage to make some decent looking ones, but I am not at all fast at it. And I need to keep an eye out for oversawing on the back line. A slight rabbet on the tails will keep the joint from being visible on the inside corner. Keep up the good work!

[Roy Lindberry]

This is how it starts for all of us...or at least for me. It has been a while since I put this post together, and I have improved much, but I once chronicled my dovetail journey:



My first attempts were far worse than anything here, but have been thrown away, so I don’t have pictures. I think the most heinous ones went into the wood stove. I figured that if I could get some heat out of them, they would at least be good for something. It wasn’t until my fifth or sixth joint that it occurred to me to start keeping them to study and learn from, though I didn’t date them, but just threw them in a box. Even so, there is a definite progression in quality from the first to last, though I can’t say for sure that these are in the actual order, but they are certainly close.

Let’s start here.

and we’ll go from there:


and the same one from the other side:

There are some gaps in these that are far bigger than what the camera shows, but they are getting better. This might be the point where I got the Veritas fine tooth dovetail saw. I wish I could be sure, but I didn’t really keep track of when these joints were cut. I do know there was an immediate and marked improvement in my dovetails when I got a good dovetail saw.



And finally we are getting to some of the better ones, though they still aren’t great. As you can see throughout, I’ve had problems with the half pins splitting out, because the joint is too tight, and I always try to assemble to the saw cut rather than doing a bunch of paring. I have gotten better at this, and it has forced me to hone my sawing skills.
i

After all of this, I decided to try half blinds. These are my first and only ones that I have done.

And even though I still have a ton of room for improvement, I have finally gotten to the point where I am willing to use hand cut dovetails on actual projects, and not just practice joints.

[Jim Koepke]

None of my dovetails have been with skinny pins…

Heck some of my gaps are bigger than some of those pins.

jtk

[Edward Clarke]

Ok, I haven't given up - here's a few pictures of my second attempt. This attempt was after watching the first half of Lonnie Bird's Dovetail DVD again to refresh my memory. Turns out that I was confusing steps from this DVD and from Jim Kingshott's DVD while leaving out important steps from each. Observe -

photo 1.jpgphoto 2.jpgphoto 3.jpg

Now the first picture is what happened when I used Bird's "move the chisel forward a bit to undercut" technique. It did ok to start but ripped out chunks in the middle - sort of like chopping a mortise would. I suspect that the thickness of the wood (about 3/4) has a lot to do with this. The last picture shows the final result. As you can see, I didn't have the two boards lined up correctly when I marked them. Which brings me to the next needed improvement - better light. If you can't see the lines that you're supposed to be following then you're not going to be successful.

[Jim Matthews]

Which brings me to the next needed improvement - better light. If you can't see the lines that you're supposed to be following then you're not going to be successful.

You're WAY ahead of the game. It took me three years to figure that out.
I find two things make for better dovetails - there's an ideal position for
me to hold the saw, to make cuts vertical - and perpendicular to the baseline.

To reach that position, I can't stand too close - my arm must be extended,
more than 90 degrees. I like it just about chest high.

To saw in that position, I need a shop light that allows me to stand some
distance away, and still see the line.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...orkbench-light

[Jim Koepke]

Now the first picture is what happened when I used Bird's "move the chisel forward a bit to undercut" technique. It did ok to start but ripped out chunks in the middle - sort of like chopping a mortise would. I suspect that the thickness of the wood (about 3/4) has a lot to do with this.

Moving the chisel forward a bit is also good to keep the chisel from wedging back to or past the base line. Starting from the outside or show faces helps to prevent the chip out seen along your base line. After a few light taps across the waste the waste is pared out making a V into the wood. This is continued for about a quarter inch of depth. This leaves a support for the rest of the waste when the piece is flipped and cut from the other side. When the chisel comes through, there should be just a little left to pare away. If you use a sharp chisel, the wood shouldn't break out in the middle.

The last picture shows the final result. As you can see, I didn't have the two boards lined up correctly when I marked them. Which brings me to the next needed improvement - better light. If you can't see the lines that you're supposed to be following then you're not going to be successful.

Good lighting is always a help.

For marking the second cut, there are a few things that can help. This is for tails first cutting. If the pins are cut first there is a different way to accomplish the same kind of guides. The pin board is set in a vise and is set flush to a piece of wood or other object to support the tail board. A block of wood is then held against the side of the pin board and the tail board is set against this. I tend to check the square about six ways to Sunday at this point. When everything seems right, a marking knife is used to mark the lines.

My tendency is to cut tails first. Then they are checked for square and pared to perfection as needed before marking the pins. After the pins are cut and chopped, if any paring is needed it is only done to the pins.

jtk

[Edward Clarke]

Ok, here's a question for you experts. The undercutting method that Lonnie Bird recommends is specifically recommended against by Jim Kingshott. Kingshott agrees that it will look good, but says that the final strength of the joint will be much less and apparently there was a fine involved for apprentices that did it in the old days.

So ... yes or no? Kingshott pares slowly to the line ( his example was a half blind dovetail though ) while Bird does the undercut. I don't mind doing either but I don't want to mix the two techniques until I get a lot better.

[Jim Koepke]

Glues like Tightbond or Elmer's do not hold well across gaps.

For me it is just as easy to pare the end grain flat.

Though at times when it is cold in the shop if an item is for my own use it doesn't get glued. A drawer on one of my benches was made during the cold season in 2013 and wasn't glued. It is still being held together just by the friction of the joints.

Recently a cabinet made for my wife wasn't glued. She painted it and hung it up before it was glued. If it is something that is going to be sold or given to someone else, it will be glued before leaving my shop.

jtk

[Shawn Pixley]

So I can't speak to either of those authors you cited but I understand and have evaluated each concept (by me and for me). I have chopped and undercut like you. But I found for me, that getting the waste where I am taking paring slices, I don't get the tearout nor risk blowing through the other side. My way may not be your way.

I hope you don't take offense as none is intended. But, just looking at your pictures, I would offer that your chisel could be sharper for that soft end grain.