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Thread: Thanks Mike! (Disston saw)

  1. #16
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    I would never stone the sides of my saw teeth. It is better to get them set uniformly. The paper method could be used if it isn't possible to get the set uniform enough.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    Are the LN panel saws taper ground (just curious)?

    Anyhow, a year or two back, I had LN make me a new saw for a Langdon miter box. It wouldn't cut square: top to bottom and in to out. The regular saw (marked MF, but probably a Disston) cut perfectly fine. I have upwards of 17 miter boxes and assorted saws, so I tested the LN saw in several other boxes and the same thing happened, as well as the MF saw cutting correctly. The saw went back to LN and when returned to me, cut the way it was supposed to. May have been a "Friday afternoon-made saw"! Anyhow, this is what happens when you want some bling in your shop-should have just stayed using the original saw.
    I am not sure if they are taper ground. Maybe there is an occasional hiccup in the process. My backsaws all cut nicely right out of the box, but not the LN panel saw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Pitonyak View Post
    Some advice from Christopher Swartz (I read on his blog) and also from Ron Herman (he told me in person) is to use paper to get a consistent saw set.

    Not sure how this works on a long saw like yours, but, you use paper (how many sheets depends on the paper thickness. I think that this was done with something like a dovetail saw so only one or two pieces of paper were used. The saw blade would be placed in a vice with metal jaws and the paper between the saw and the blade. Squeezing the saw would take care of the issue.

    I have also seen the side hit with a file or a stone, but I expect that this would make the teeth narrower (because it removes metal), which probably weakens them. I have seen them at least lightly stoned regardless, was told it made it more uniform and sharper.
    The paper seems like it could work pretty well, thanks for the idea.

    i agree with George's sentiment with regard to stoning the sides, seems like it would not do well for the shape of the tooth.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  3. #18
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    This was done with a machinist's vise generating considerable torque.

    That process presumes that the saw teeth are over set, and then compressed
    in the final step - with the sheet of paper acting as a stop.

    In practice, I find most of my saws that cut poorly or offline are underset.

  4. #19
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    I added set because I felt a little room to steer is helpful in a panel saw.

    I noticed that in tweaking these saws I minimized how often I would hit the front of a saw cut (like on a tenon) and the back would be off the line just slightly. I can flip the board to minimize that, but it not happening is better yet.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  5. #20
    Here is the LN description of their panel saw plates: " Taper ground blade - .032" to .026" thick, with a .005" set. Curly Maple handles. Cross cut 8 and 12 ppi. Rip 7 ppi."

    Their panel saws seem a bit whippy to me; at least more flexible than the vintage saws I have. Perhaps the tensioning of the saw plates in older quality saws makes them less prone to deflection.

  6. #21
    Personally I don't believe that the 20" 7ppi Lie-Nielsen rip should even be compared to a Disston 26" No.12 5 1/2 ppi rip that's been brought back into proper working order and I'll just leave it at that.

    As far as side dressing is concerned, why not? I've been doing it for years now and don't see one problem with it and I was one that started out not doing it. Now it's not meant to take care of too much set. Instead, it's meant to "lightly" dress the the teeth, even up the set and overall make for a more robust outer cutting edge instead of the scratching point that Holly talks about. I probably go overboard and quickly hit each tooth about 5 times with a 42X and they look very even when sighting down the side of the blade. However, when you pass a dull file lightly down each side, you can see that they aren't quite perfect by the "very" small difference in the flat left on each tooth.

    Here's what Holly (1864), Disston (1907 & 1923), Atkins (1907) & Simonds (1926) had to say.

    holly.jpg1907 disston hand book on saws.jpg1923 the disston saw tool & file book.jpg1907 atkins saw sense.jpg1926 simonds guide for carpenters.jpg

    Take care,
    Daryl

  7. #22
    Daryl, thanks for posting those scans. And thanks, years late, for your saw-sharpening guide. Along with Pete Taran's and Matt Cianci's, it is something I still go back and read from time to time. It certainly helped turn me into a competent saw-sharpener, without spending a bunch of money.
    I dress the teeth like you do, very lightly, just to knock off the burr and even the set a bit. Matt Cianci mentions putting a strip or two of blue tap on the saw, below the teeth, to raise the stone a few thou off the plate. I've found this helpful too.
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I triumphed over my laziness (just home from work still in a coat and tie) and clamped it to the saw bench of the remainder of the cut.

    Mind you, this is just a line struck and eye-balled 90;
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post



    Very nice Brian – I think you're giving too much credit to the tool and not enough to the sawyer!

    I'm glad you are enjoying the saw. As Steve mentioned, there's nothing like having the right tool for the job – how else could I justify to the LOML why I have all those saws hanging in the shop!


    Cheers, Mike

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daryl Weir View Post
    Personally I don't believe that the 20" 7ppi Lie-Nielsen rip should even be compared to a Disston 26" No.12 5 1/2 ppi rip that's been brought back into proper working order and I'll just leave it at that.

    As far as side dressing is concerned, why not? I've been doing it for years now and don't see one problem with it and I was one that started out not doing it. Now it's not meant to take care of too much set. Instead, it's meant to "lightly" dress the the teeth, even up the set and overall make for a more robust outer cutting edge instead of the scratching point that Holly talks about. I probably go overboard and quickly hit each tooth about 5 times with a 42X and they look very even when sighting down the side of the blade. However, when you pass a dull file lightly down each side, you can see that they aren't quite perfect by the "very" small difference in the flat left on each tooth.

    Here's what Holly (1864), Disston (1907 & 1923), Atkins (1907) & Simonds (1926) had to say.


    Daryl is authentically THE MAN when it comes to master level saw restoration, sharpening and tuning!

    I have been woodworking for 30 years, and the like my fellow Neanders here in the cave have seen and heard my fair share of hype when it comes to tools. The reason I decided to get rid of my table saw many moons ago is I bought a Disston #12 from Darryl. When I used it for the first time it was truly a revelation for me – I had no idea a handsaw could cut so quickly, accurately and with so little effort.

    It was truly an "ah ha" moment. Exactly like when I was 20 and used a well tuned Stanley plane for the first time, instead of the hardware store plane I had been using. After I took my first shaving, I clearly remember thinking "so this is how this is supposed to work!".

    There are a few truly talented saw doctors working today who restore vintage saws for woodworkers, not just collectors, and I have saws from most of them. IMHO Darrell is absolutely the true master in every sense of the word. I am a saw geek and I freely admit it can seem more complicated than it really is. Nonetheless, I really believe there is a difference between a saw that been "sharpened" and one that has been precision tuned so that every element; toothline, geometry, set, the degree of plate polish etc. all work together in a coordinated way to provide optimal performance. Like everything else, it's a matter of degree and execution.

    I've seen and used lots of vintage saws that were obviously well used for many years by preindustrial woodworkers to make a living. Clearly a lot of those old boys were better cabinetmakers/finish carpenters than they were saw tuners. They probably didn't have the luxury of fussing over there saw to squeeze every last bit of performance out of it because they had to get back to work to put food on the table.

    Absolutely, hands down the best money I ever spent on a tool was buying a saw from Daryl. I know that may sound like hyperbole, but it's honest-to-goodness what I really think. I have no connection to Daryl other than as a very satisfied customer. If you've ever considered trying a premium vintage saw that been tuned/restored by real expert, you owe it to yourself to check out his website. I'm not sure if I can post a link here to old saws restored but I will try:

    http://home.grics.net/~weir/Old_SAWS_Restored.html

    All the best, Mike

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    [I]


    Very nice Brian – I think you're giving too much credit to the tool and not enough to the sawyer!

    I'm glad you are enjoying the saw. As Steve mentioned, there's nothing like having the right tool for the job – how else could I justify to the LOML why I have all those saws hanging in the shop!


    Cheers, Mike
    I appreciate the kind words, cheers!

    I have a feeling I will be keeping a hawk-eye in Daryl's site as well for a short depth tenon saw.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #26
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    When saw guru Tom Law quit sharpening, he would only recommend one person to sharpen and that was Daryl Weir. I've never used Daryl's services, mainly because I have a horde of vintage saws that Law had sharpened for me, including rip, CC, panel and back saws. Through the years, I've learned to touch up rip and CC saws, but send out back saws (Bob Rozkewski does a great job), as my 60 something eyes are having difficulty, even with 3 times magnification!
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  12. #27
    What is considered a reasonably good speed when ripping with a good handsaw?
    Other night I was ripping some nice tight grain 2x12 Dug Fir for another workbench and I was getting about 2 min/ft, so it took me 50 min to cut about 25 feet.
    Is that reasonable? I was using decent looking D-7 that feels pretty sharp, I got it from eBay for about $25.
    I definitely got sweaty, but it was a cold night and it felt good

    Thanks.

  13. #28
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    What is considered a reasonably good speed when ripping with a good handsaw?
    This depends on a lot of factors.

    My benchmark is my 6ppi, ~8º if rake, D-8 on 4/4 ash. About 15 minutes for a 10' rip. A coarser tooth pattern of 4ppi at ~5º rake was a bit faster, but was also much more tiring.

    This isn't a real good comparison since you are working on thicker stock. My ash was kiln dried, your DF may still have some moisture to slow down the work.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Daryl Weir View Post
    Personally I don't believe that the 20" 7ppi Lie-Nielsen rip should even be compared to a Disston 26" No.12 5 1/2 ppi rip that's been brought back into proper working order and I'll just leave it at that.. . .
    Take care,
    Daryl
    Hmm - not being in a position to know how to pick out a vintage saw, and will too little woodworking / hobby time available to try to get an old saw to cut well, I was really planning on getting a LN saw.

    Is this to say the LN saws are not good (or minimally, worth what they ask)? If so, what is the groups recommendation on getting a good performing saw w/o dedicating a weekend or so to setup, or without being able to inspect and old saw prior to purchase? Or were you literally saying the specifications of the two saws are too different to compare?

  15. #30
    deleted

    Last edited by Lasse Hilbrandt; 01-01-2016 at 1:43 PM.
    Best regards

    Lasse Hilbrandt

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