Brian Burns sharpening

[david charlesworth]

The Burns pamphlet is very interesting.

He is one of the few people who talks about sensible cutting angles (effective pitches) for Exotic timbers.

I feel that chisel backs can be done better, but his plane information is excellent.

best wishes,
David

[David Ragan]

So, to sum it up

-there are significantly more variables in the system above.

-your jig riding on the stone is not a big deal

Thanks David for your input. My experience has been that folks who write the books are more than happy to talk with folks who contact them. It continues to surprise me that such people are accessible.

BTW I have 3 of your books. Great style-I tend to do better with a lot of pictures and illustrations. Just pulled them, will look over them this evening and see what else I can glean, as it has been some time since I last consulted them.

[ian maybury]

Hi David(s). TBH i think it's a lot to do with mindset and situation. As in there's many that adopt the view that if it's sharp that a marginal lack of precision doesn't matter all that much. Which no doubt is true - provided that is you have been at it for long enough to figure out which bits matter, and which don't - and to learn how to maintain both categories of variable where needed.

It's interesting actually, in that there's a definite school of sharpening that takes this latter (empirical?) view. Hand sharpening is a case in point, in that if it delivers a result then it does. As with some of the lifetime trade guys you see working in videos from markets and the like. They have so long since found ways around the little issues that they are not even conscious of what they are doing any more. The technique might not be the sort of thing taught in half an hour, but it's hard to argue with the magical results that extended practice and body memory can produce.

It's a very Zen deal actually...

My personal (engineering and more ideological) and not so experienced approach is to where possible stick with methods that incorporate precision/don't create hostages to unanticipated fortune, but i guess the other way is as above to over many years progressively knock the bugs out of a less formal method until it works - even if some variation that doesn't matter so much is left in...

[David Ragan]

Hi David(s). TBH i think it's a lot to do with mindset and situation. As in there's many that adopt the view that if it's sharp that a marginal lack of precision doesn't matter all that much. Which no doubt is true - provided that is you have been at it for long enough to figure out which bits matter, and which don't - and to learn how to maintain both categories of variable where needed.

It's interesting actually, in that there's a definite school of sharpening that takes this latter (empirical?) view. Hand sharpening is a case in point, in that if it delivers a result then it does. As with some of the lifetime trade guys you see working in videos from markets and the like. They have so long since found ways around the little issues that they are not even conscious of what they are doing any more. The technique might not be the sort of thing taught in half an hour, but it's hard to argue with the magical results that extended practice and body memory can produce.

It's a very Zen deal actually...

My personal (engineering and more ideological) and not so experienced approach is to where possible stick with methods that incorporate precision/don't create hostages to unanticipated fortune, but i guess the other way is as above to over many years progressively knock the bugs out of a less formal method until it works - even if some variation that doesn't matter so much is left in...

Just another reason why I love engineers. Because, as you implied, there is no absolute Black and White, just shades of grey.

Empirical is the correct word-not sure of exact definition, but you have it correct Ian.

And-you are correct that in any work, as experiences accumulate (making errors and seeing what has a significant impact on final result), one discovers where corners may be cut. Not many, I'm afraid, but there are some.

[ian maybury]

I'm an engineer, but I actually hand sharpened for most of my life David - but on generic oilstones and more recently on diamonds. We didn't even get stuff like Arkansas or other fine stones in our little backwater. And did fine for general purpose woodworking tasks.

Getting set up with Shapton waterstones and a Veritas Mk 2 guide and good irons proved a total eye opener - precisely formed (faceted as Winton likes to say) and 12,000 grit polished edges proved a revelation. There's a few kinks to using a honing guide well too, but I guess the point is that once the process is figured out getting these edges reliably requires only a bit of discipline. It's not even slow.

The bit I haven't figured out for definite yet is whether or not there are many out there hand sharpening and reliably matching that standard of edge. For sure it can be done, but do many make it that far? Or if they do can they maintain that standard over successive sharpenings?

[Winton Applegate]

Just another reason why I love engineers.

I look at it from a machine tooling perspective.
e.g. :
Say a machinist wants to cut a particular kind of metal in a particular high production operation.
The optimum cutter material, cutting edge grind angles, chip breaker aspects (yes they break chips in metal cutting tooling bits), cutting fluid, cutting speed, feed rates for a specified finish and or maximum amount of material that can be removed without damaging something . . .

this has pretty much been researched/calculated. All the technician has to do is look it up and follow it.
Does the technician say "Ahhhhh that's all B__ S___. I know better !
I can hand grind and hand polish an edge on the carbide or other high tech/high production cutter.
I don't need no precisely ground tool bits.

No. Not if they want to manufacture parts at the fastest rate possible with the least amount of down time.
I feel that way about the plane blades. Once I find the edge that works best for a batch of wood I want to be able to brainlessly repeat that edge over and over and over.
Not sorta round and bang my way to something that is sharp but poorly formed.
Hand held sharpening work is never going to be as precise as a machine ground set up.
Meaning a jig.

I heard the person who said they could hit 30° like clock work and all but I want to look at the microscopic area right at the edge. That is what is doing the cutting.
There is bound to be some slight rounding, while using more than two stones there is bound to be some areas that did not visit well with all three stones either the fine stone did not make it all the way to the edge or it did and then rounded over some of the edge. With jig sharpening things are more uniformly done, more easily repeatable when one is tired and takes almost no concentration or talent. Concentration and talent is fun for the first couple of blades but after the sixth or tenth edge there is bound to be some lapses.

I just like the 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 aspect of jig sharpening.
Hand sharpening is kind of 1ish + 2 ish + 3 ish adds up to a different result every time.

Some times it doesn't matter but sometimes it makes some real difference.

[Winton Applegate]

Davids books are really first rate.
I was thrilled to discover them back in the day when I was trying to learn real woodworking and all I had was text and photos (no classes). Then DVDs came along. Great to see the rhythm and speed of work being done but can't beat text and photos for focused, detailed, thoroughly thought through and refined communication of ideas.

[ian maybury]

David C's stuff is great, and the basis of the waterstone with honing guide technique i'm using now.

Guess it always comes down to the specific situation Winton. The on-stone honing guide based approach works really well for me, and though i know that with care i can produce something that works well by hand i can't match its absolute repeatability and precision. Plus i'm another sucker for your gleaming facets - whether it's a micro bevel on a plane iron, or a single bevel on a Japanese chisel.

Industrial techniques value repeatability very highly because the cost of scrap and re-work is huge - not to mention the way they play havoc with downstream process steps and with ability to deliver on time and to cost and quality standards. Whatever method is adopted has to be effective in the hands of Joe Average that comes in off the street to work too - even presuming time to build skills (which isn't usually available) much anything else leaves a business at the mercy of a cadre of highly skilled and almost irreplaceble crafts guys. This in low volume production scenarios might lead to a jig/fixture assisted process (as in the on-stone methods we're using, or as in Brian B's alternative using his off stone honing guide) with a requirement for significant skill and right motivation still remaining, in high volume situations (where it delivers a return on investment) it might be entirely automated and the issues become about machine capability (high and low limits to process capabilities) and machine operation. With (a different) skill set and right motivation remaining essential.

The guy who has been sharpening by hand for half a lifetime isn't (presuming he's very good, and is deeply into what he's doing) the same deal as the above Joe. Not only that - IF he can pull it off reliably by hand he may well be a bit quicker than even a highly practiced guide user. Not by very much mind you if the latter is also very good. There's also the little matter that given the need to haul out, wet up and flatten the waterstones and tidy up afterwards that the difference maybe isn't significant from a time point of view, and is more (?) down to personal preferences…. (ceramics sound promising though)

Setting aside this mythical worker of hand magic the methods put out by guys like David C are presumably chosen on the assumption that much like in industry they need to be accessible for the relatively un-practiced Joe too - although in this case it's Joe Hobby Woodworker who at least initially may not be so concerned about ultimate productivity.

Guess so far that i like the repeatability a guide introduces - but there's still plenty of scope to mess up with one if we are not very careful. The bottom line may be that in a private/personal work situation we're at least lucky enough have the freedom to be led by our own hearts, needs and preferences. All bets are off though when bragging rights get in the mix....

[David Ragan]

I got a new book yesterday! Actually two this week.

One was Scott Wynn book on planes--big proponent of free hand.

The other is a fundamental book by, um, I forgot (sorry!). I am so exhausted from completing the renovation.

I will post pics on workshop forum.

I did get my sharpening station back (all the clutter gone)