Getting a Saw Started

[Jim Koepke]

Instead of hijacking another thread on saws it seemed better to start a new thread on starting a saw.

Here is a quick video made today of me making a short saw cut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea5ojH9SnH8

Of course my hand isn't in the frame so you can't see how the heel of my hand works against the bottom horn to lighten the front of the saw.

The video is of a crosscut. My rip cuts are pretty much the same.

Saw Fits Hand.jpg

When learning to saw, the way to start a cut was to pull back on the saw. Now this seems messy and the saw seems to bounce around. For a better result, it seems starting with light forward strokes has a cleaner finish.

Hopefully others will show us their tips on starting a saw cut.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

I would add :
Pulling back is OK for a cross cut because of the knife shaped nature of the cross cut teeth that tend to cut some in pull as well as push.

For rip saw starting pushing is probably the best way to go.

Wasn't there an old thread about a type of tool that was used as or right after the marking knife, perhaps on the other side of the line in some cases (in the waste side of the line). The tool was to create a guide kerf for the saw to start in so the cut was right on the line.

Seems like maybe it was even a two part tool. Two points like Derek's cutting gauge and then a chisel shaped cutter to get the depth of the guide kerf.

Typing it all out makes it sound like so much wasted time and motion but for some things it might be pretty cool.

Any body know about what I am referring to or did I dream all that up?
The end result was kind of like what a kerfing blade on a plywood table saw does.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jim K -

looks fine. My take-away is that, as a middlin' back saw operator, my cuts don't take appreciably more time than yours. I always have this thing in the back of my mind that says I am moving too slow. And - maybe I am, but I can live with it knowing I am in your league, if not your exact ballpark.

My problem musta come from that 60 seconds I wasted one time watching that one Rob Cosman video on cutting dovetails in that warm butter............er...........I mean...........wood. Must be the brand of saw he uses, eh?

[Jim Koepke]

I would add :
Pulling back is OK for a cross cut because of the knife shaped nature of the cross cut teeth that tend to cut some in pull as well as push.

For rip saw starting pushing is probably the best way to go.

Wasn't there an old thread about a type of tool that was used as or right after the marking knife, perhaps on the other side of the line in some cases (in the waste side of the line). The tool was to create a guide kerf for the saw to start in so the cut was right on the line.

Seems like maybe it was even a two part tool. Two points like Derek's cutting gauge and then a chisel shaped cutter to get the depth of the guide kerf.

Typing it all out makes it sound like so much wasted time and motion but for some things it might be pretty cool.

Any body know about what I am referring to or did I dream all that up?
The end result was kind of like what a kerfing blade on a plywood table saw does.

Even with crosscut filed saws my tendency is to start cuts with a push stroke. It seems easier to have a consistent way of starting all cuts.

BTW, the saw in the video is filed rip but works fine cross grain. You can see that it does leave a little fuzz on the cut.

The tool you are thinking of may be a kerf starter. Glenn Drake makes one.

Another method is to use the marking knife to remove wood next to the scribed line to help start a saw. Some just notch the corner where the saw is going to start cutting.

Chris Shwarz wrote something about three kinds of cuts: mark and cut, notch and cut and groove and cut. Marking and cutting seems to work fine for me on most cuts, but often the marking knife is drawn back to peel out a notch to cut. What ever works...

I always have this thing in the back of my mind that says I am moving too slow. And - maybe I am, but I can live with it knowing I am in your league, if not your exact ballpark.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Kent. My sawing really isn't all that great. My big excitement recently was having some of my potting bench dovetails go together without having to pare the pin walls. A few needed paring. There were also some gaps. Not as bad as my dovetails used to be.

Hopefully sawing to a line is akin to sharpening in that the more one does, the better one gets.

jtk

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I use my marking knife to take a little chip out,
at the far side of the cut, in the waste.

It gives the saw a place to start at rest.

[Pat Barry]

I would add :

Wasn't there an old thread about a type of tool that was used as or right after the marking knife, perhaps on the other side of the line in some cases (in the waste side of the line). The tool was to create a guide kerf for the saw to start in so the cut was right on the line. .

Ahem... Isn't that the entire purpose for a saw nib? JK

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, I think that is the case. I used to be quite bad at sawing, then took on a project where I'm building mitered corner frames.....70 frames later I've gotten much better at sawing.

Mike gave me a tip with the saw that he sent me, and that was to start it flat on the cut, I now use this method for big saws.

i'll ask my wife if she can video me, I'm not the best sawyer by any means, but I've improved dramatically in the past couple years.

[Judson Green]

Jim, I think that is the case. I used to be quite bad at sawing, then took on a project where I'm building mitered corner frames.....70 frames later I've gotten much better at sawing.

Mike gave me a tip with the saw that he sent me, and that was to start it flat on the cut, I now use this method for big saws.

i'll ask my wife if she can video me, I'm not the best sawyer by any means, but I've improved dramatically in the past couple years.

Brian, what do you mean by "start it flat on the cut"?

[Tom M King]

I never really paid attention to how I start a saw. I expect it varies, depending. Yesterday I was cutting the ears on a 10/4 White Oak window sill replacement on an old house, and used a 6 pt. rip saw for the lengthwise cut. I started it on the full width of the end I was cutting down into. That saw has 0 rake. If I had started it on the off corner, it might have taken out a chunk wider than the cut. If started on the near corner, it might have gotten hung up. As it went, it started right off, and melted right down in the wood. Sharp always helps.

[Winton Applegate]

notch and cut (vs groove and cut)

I have not been satisfied with notching for one reason or another. Almost seems to ramp the saw across the line rather than keep it on the line.
Or maybe I just can’t saw and need to stick to sharpening jigs to stay in my comfort zone.
And on real hard stuff cutting a significant notch very far along the line gets tedious.

Even with crosscut filed saws my tendency is to start cuts with a push stroke. It seems easier to have a consistent way of starting all cuts.

Yesterday I would have agreed with you . . . today . . . now that you have made me sit here and “think” about it how about this :
talking purely cross cut now

• IF the line is knifed then start on the push (or pull doesn’t matter)
• If the line is a pencil mark ( or fine marker / just NOT knifed) then start on the pull stroke to sever the first fibers so they don’t get sproinged outward.

Now w’er over thinking it.

There now . . .
What do you say to that ?

Pat,

Ahem... Isn't that the entire purpose for a saw nib?

you’ve hit on it ! ! ! no one else could solve it but now we know.

[Isaac Smith]

I've seen a lot of people pick up my saws over the past couple of years. A fair percentage of these struggle with using them, especially starting the cut. There are three suggestions I offer that seem to help most people. It looks pretty much like your video.

First: Give yourself a running start. Figuratively, of course, by starting with most, or even all, of the weight of the saw off of the wood. If the teeth are hovering above the wood, or just barely touching it, it is much easier to start moving the saw forward to gain momentum. Once that momentum is gathered, put it to work and bear down a bit more.

Second: Anchor the saw against yourself. Set your offhand thumb on the wood, then press the saw lightly against it. This keeps the saw from skittering sideways as you start pushing it. This is especially important if you follow the advice above.

Third: I like to cut with the grain when possible (this really only applies to rip cuts). For cuts like dovetails or tenon cheeks, that means either starting the cut on the near side of the wood or starting with the teeth flat on the end grain. Starting the cut on the far side is similar to planing against the grain. It works, but it usually sounds and feels a bit rougher.

That's about all I have. Nothing exotic, and it may not work for everyone.

[Winton Applegate]

running start

I agree.
For dovetails I prefer the LN coarse tooth dovetail saw (10 T) and that's the way I roll.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks for posting this, Jim. A video really helps a lot for something like this. My technique is very similar. The thing I recently learned and am trying to incorporate is starting on the push by taking the weight off the saw toe.

It's good to hear that I seem to be heading in the right direction! I just need a little more practice to commit it to muscle memory.

Instead of hijacking another thread on saws it seemed better to start a new thread on starting a saw.

Here is a quick video made today of me making a short saw cut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea5ojH9SnH8

Of course my hand isn't in the frame so you can't see how the heel of my hand works against the bottom horn to lighten the front of the saw.

The video is of a crosscut. My rip cuts are pretty much the same.

Saw Fits Hand.jpg

When learning to saw, the way to start a cut was to pull back on the saw. Now this seems messy and the saw seems to bounce around. For a better result, it seems starting with light forward strokes has a cleaner finish.

Hopefully others will show us their tips on starting a saw cut.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

For cuts like dovetails or tenon cheeks, that means either starting the cut on the near side of the wood or starting with the teeth flat on the end grain.

Isaac, thanks for pointing this out. For me on dovetails it is starting with the teeth on the flat.

This is demonstrated here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...66#post2378566

It isn't as clear as you stated above.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Dan.

I just need a little more practice to commit it to muscle memory.

Glad to hear you only "need a little more practice." It seems I am going to need a lot more.

jtk