Wow, 45 replies in half a day!
I agree that biscuits won't do it. I got rid of my biscuit cutter because they aren't good for much of anything.
Personally I would use pocket screws. No one will see them, and they are plenty strong.
If that freaks you out, then dowels are fine. I use an old Stanley I got for $1 at a garage sale.
Sure, the Domino is great if you have an extra $1,200; I would use it over pocket screws if there was any chance of being seen.
Who cares what Arts & Crafts originally used? Are you making replicas or furniture? (the glue we have today actually works)
But then again, I hate QSWO; looks like furniture my grandparents would own. I have used butternut and african mahogany; but gosh, I guess it isn't A&C then....
Last edited by Wade Lippman; 02-26-2015 at 8:56 PM.
If I used a Domino for the structural mortises and wanted the look of through mortises, I would fake it. I'd make shallow mortises and little fake tenon end plugs. It was for a different reason but I put fake tenon ends in a hall table to cover the screws holding the breadboard ends on. They look and work fine.
Who cares what Arts & Crafts originally used? Are you making replicas or furniture? (the glue we have today actually works)
But then again, I hate QSWO; looks like furniture my grandparents would own. I have used butternut and african mahogany; but gosh, I guess it isn't A&C then....
With a style like arts and crafts its hard to separate the aesthetics from the construction from the metaphysics. Its all so intertwined. You want it to look simple, sturdy, honest....it has to be simple sturdy and honest. But it doesn't have to be QSWO. Maybe for Stickley recreations specifically, but some of the best looking IMHO Stickley and most of the Green and Green as well as English arts and crafts were not QSWO, often mahogany, occasionally other species. And the style has endured and grown to include many things beyond its originators vision. So yes, it can still be A&C.....as long as it isn't ramchackled together with spit, gum, pocket screws and biscuits! Or at least in the definition of "Craftsman Style" to which I adhere....the one I made up in my mind.
I'm no fan of biscuits for leg to apron table connections. We can argue the ultimate strength of biscuits, engineers can test them, but when all is said and done...I can break biscuits with my teeth. Can you break 3/8" tenons in white oak with your teeth? On a right angle butt joint that is the central joint in a construction, with little other support, failure of which would be catastrophic to the piece in question....I feel the time and materials alone justify in all cases a better construction.
If I were buying a mortiser presently, the list would be short.......real short.....domino XL. thats the list. I use one weekly at work, have been for about a year, I have little need for other methods. I haven't bought one for home, because I have a slot mortiser...and a drill press with chisel attachment for small mortises and squaring shoulders....and the DP will make monster mortises with a forschner bit, and I have spiral carbides in every size I need for the plunge router from before I had the slot mortiser. And a full set of mortising chisels. So many good ways to make mortise and tenons, some faster, some cheaper, all excellent if done well. But if I were at zero, the XL domino would be the starting and ending point. Its so fast and strong, lets you focus on more important details, like shaping, sanding, finishing. I like joinery, for some it is the focus of the work, but its not mine, joinery is for me perfunctory and almost secondary. Absolutely required but not my emotional favorite. So why not make it painless? And the domino is as others have noted highly portable. If the joints have to go through, Id fake it unless they are getting wedged.
If you are going router, I don't think it much matters up or down cut, you could get compression bits that do both, but with a backer, like a piece of 1/8" MDF between jig and work, and something below if its a through plunge, there is little danger of damage even with upcuts IME.
"A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel
A different idea, FWIW. You can also use sliding dovetails, done with a router. Ive had good luck with those on tables, if I dont plan to have a functional drawer. (Couple times I made a fake inset drawer. It looks good for where I have the table standing and its less work.)
Good luck Scott!
Fred
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
And the tenon jig is from Woodgears.ca. The long walnut lever moves the carriage laterally, and using the dial indicator you are able to size the tenon exactly. There's 2 stop blocks so it's repeatable, and indexes from the same side for both sides of the tenon. You would then cut the cheeks off with a crosscut sled.
Together they work very well and can make perfect M&T joints very quickly. For anything these don't cover, I just drill out and chop by hand. Not a big deal. No need to spend $$$$ on equipment when this does the same thing. If I did this for a living, then yes, it would make sense to buy one of those high dollar tools, but it doesn't make financial sense when these two jigs probably don't take much more time than those do.
Frediricks sliding dovetail would be a good exercise.
Dominos are terrific and you can easily do what Jim suggest with that tool.
If you are determined to go traditional though and use a chisel and drill bits for your mortises - that can be fun as well. Much quieter and kind of nice way to spend a morning.
And if you really wanted a challenge you could pick up a book on Japanese joinery techniques.
There are plenty of methods and opinions. I prefer a traditional mortise and tenon, but other options are reasonable.
Biscuits will certainly add strength to the joint, and might even survive the application, but would not offer the safety margin I prefer. It's in edge joints where they won't add strength, simply because a glued butt joint is as strong as the wood anyway. They are tenons, just small ones.
A domino is not needed. It will add efficiency, and if you have the money and want to spend it, go ahead. But inserted tenons had been used for a long time before the domino, and the needed mortises can easily be cut with a router. As usual, Tage Frid described a good method. You can find a description in his books, or on the Highland woodworking website under "library". It might take an hour to make the jig.
I just used a method I found on f.w.w. Website and it worked great. I made a simple jig, just an oval shaped hole in a piece of 1/4 ply, clamped it to the workpiece and used a guide bushing with a 1/4 up cut bit to route most of the way through the piece. With that done you need to drill a hole through the mortise a bit larger that your flush trim bit and use that to cut the mortise from the other side. Then it's just a matter of squaring up the corners. As far as the tenons I've gotten much better results using a jig than with a dado blade.
Lots of arts and crafts style of furniture used exposed (through) M&T with chamfers on the ends of the tenon.
I've seen many methods to duplicate the style, often involving making fake tenon applications. But I do wonder sometimes if it wouldn't just be easier to do it the original way, with a mortising machine and a through tenon.
None of that probably matters if you aren't going for a real accurate depiction and don't care about that all the way through tenon look.
I really don't think you need to change bits in the middle. I use an upcut bit for all of mine, and make a thin plunge in to start, and then finish your mortise. In another post you mentioned that your stock is 3/4" thick. I would recommend a 1/4" or maybe 3/8" mortise. 1/2" is too wide and won't leave enough for your cheeks.
Doc
As Cort would say: Fools are the only folk on the earth who can absolutely count on getting what they deserve.
For the through mortises in the stretchers, unless you are going to use a mortiser, most other solutions require squaring up the corners.
If you had to do more than one of these, I would consider a double sided, saddled router jig that lines up the holes from both sides perfectly.
If you only have to do one (so 4-8 through mortises total) then, you may find that it is the most efficient (and arguably most satisfying) to use a drill press (assuming your dp can drill to depth) to use the drill press, then clean up with a chisel. In fact, you'll find paring down the sides to of the mortises to be the easy part. The work is all in wasting the corners and the end grain chops there.
As far as tenons go, I am personally a dado (in fact the speed tenon because I don't have a dado blade) method fan. The reason is that it's just easier for me to sneak up on the width of the tenon by tweaking the blade depth instead of the fence distance. This is truly a matter of personal preference.
As far as tenons go, I am personally a dado (in fact the speed tenon because I don't have a dado blade) method fan. The reason is that it's just easier for me to sneak up on the width of the tenon by tweaking the blade depth instead of the fence distance. This is truly a matter of personal preference.
I used to go that route on all tenons. Still do for those that are too unwieldy for the tenon jig. But - I changed for routine work to the tenon jig - because the perfectly smooth faces it leaves. The dado set ain't too shabby there either, but I just like it the other way.
When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.
Here's my first effort at a mortise and tenon. I used my plunge router w/guide and stops and a 1/4" beveled chisel to square up the round corners. Kinda sloppy on the chiseling, looks like I'll need to clean up with some filler. I left the tenon a bit long and will trim to 1/4" and bevel the edges. I'm finding the router cumbersome for mortising, and not very precise when flipping the piece to complete a through mortise. I'm planning to build a lot of A/C furniture and am leaning toward a hefty mortiser...the GI 75-075 looks like a sturdy work horse. It's a beast at 275 lbs.I was going to fume the QSWO with 26% aqueous ammonia but have pets and don't want to risk killing a curious doggie or cat so I've decided to chemically stain the wood with potassium dichromate. I did a test on a scrap piece and it darkens the wood nicely. I'm undecided on the finish and am open to suggestions. I've been using primarily waterborne on my cabs and want to try a more traditional oil or solvent based finish. Was wondering if BLO or tung oil would be a good choice.Thanks for all the helpful advice!
Scott Vroom
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
Here's my first effort at a mortise and tenon.......... looks like I'll need to clean up with some filler............. I've decided to chemically stain the wood with potassium dichromate. I did a test on a scrap piece and it darkens the wood nicely. I'm undecided on the finish and am open to suggestions........... Was wondering if BLO or tung oil would be a good choice.Thanks for all the helpful advice!
Scott -
Realize that there are expansion issues with those joints. Not so much in this narrow width, but when you get into wider tenons on, say, lower shelves in end tables, etc. - - you need to allow for expansion. Glue/pin the center, leave the ends free, make the mortises oversize. The point - if you inspect from-the-day A+C/Stickley, you will notice gaps at the ends of that type of tenon. You don't need filler - you need to remove more wood.
On the coloring - yeah - the ammonia was big back in the day, a bit of a PITA for me. The pot dichro is also traditional from back in the day - G&G in particular. Haven't tried it - let me know how it goes - I have often thought about that. Have you looked at Jewitt's approach in the Homestead site? Gets you a very solid period-correct-looking finish using modern materials.
ON the finish - I think you DON"T want a glossy, deep finish - not what you'd see on that style. I use home-brew version of danish oil: 1/3 BLO + 1/3 oil varnish of your choice + 1/3 turps.
Other people us something different that the turps. Whatever. That's what I like.
Ratios are not decimal-precision. Adjust as you like for what you want.
Over-thin first coat for absorption. Under-thin last coats for film build.
All coats: Flood on. Let it sit. Look for dry spots [especially first coat]. Keep adding to cover dry spots. You want to let it sit on there as long as you can, before it is gelling too fast for you to be able to get it wiped off. Which is when? - can't say. You will develop a feeling. For me, it is 30 - 40 Min.
Then - cotton rags toe wipe like crazy. FInish will weep out of joints - watch for that, It iwll harden is shiny globs. Use dowel with pencil point, covered with rag, and compressed air nozzle to blow it out of joints and wipe it up cleanly.
3 - 4 coats gives you a lovely soft finish.
BTW - Jewitt says use satin Arm-R-Seal.
When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by Wade Lippman
