Counterfeit/Knockoff Tools

[Kees Heiden]

I think there is a message. Many woodworkers are looking for decent midrange stuff. Nobody needs a 50 dollar marking knife. Or a 70 dollar plane adjusting hammer. When you enjoy that kind of stuff, there is of course no problem with that. But I guess that the majority of the woodworkers frowns on prices like that.

The woodriver planes started out as a knockoff from the LN range. In the meantime they have put quite some devellopment in their range of planes. So they sure are not 100% clean, but they do answer a real demand from the market.

Luckily there is the antique market, otherwise I wouldn't know how I would have furnished my workshop.

[Derek Cohen]

Nobody needs a 50 dollar marking knife. Or a 70 dollar plane adjusting hammer.

Kees, you are quite right.

Many understand and accept this. Either purchase what you can afford at this time, save for what you would prefer, renovate or restore something used but good, or make your own. The issues only lie with those who want it instantly - unfortunately the direction the world is heading.

The woodriver planes started out as a knockoff from the LN range. In the meantime they have put quite some devellopment in their range of planes. So they sure are not 100% clean, but they do answer a real demand from the market.

I do believe that WR have been trying to clean up their act with regard the handplanes. And it is clear that they offer great value-for-money ... not as good as LN or LV, but they appear to be responding to the public commentary. On the other hand, there are still a number of other tools coming out of the factory, and they are not as kosher.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Derek,

I would contend it is also the dealers/retailers that greatly influence this issue. As far as the UK markets go, I believe it is more of the stature of several tool retailers that interact with their customers much the same as LV & LN (and routinely sell the knock-offs) that has cause the widespread acceptance of those tools in that country. Another reason, is the fact there are many more workmen in the UK using handtools in their profession as compared to other countries, such as the US. I believe Kees is correct in the message he stated, as far as a need for decent midrange tools.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

I agree that the retailers have a vested interest in the forum members accepting knock offs. Import duty and other tariffs raise the price of tools, such as LN and LV beyond what those in the USA are used to spending. It is the same situation for us in Australia. Currently the exchange rate will add 50% to the retail price in the USA. However this is not the problem - this is the rationalisation.

The problem is that LN and LV are perceived around the world - this is not just one continent - as "premium" tools. WoodRiver is not perceived as a "middle range" tool but as a shortcut to acquiring a premium tool. The middle range tools are already available - vintage Stanley - however they are not considered as middle ground but entry level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Anderson NH]

Interesting topic folks. As a toolmaker I personally don't worry about someone knocking off my designs. First, I can afford to ignore the issue because I only do it part time and any lost income is not going to determine whether or not I can put food on the table. Secondly, my tools are variations of designs and technologies that have been around for centuries and can't be protected by patents. Only my trademark stamped into the tools can be protected legally. As for design patents, they are so easy to work around that they aren't worth the trouble. However, the single most important thing is that Trade Dress, Design Patents, Trademarks, and regular patents are only useful protections if you have deep enough pockets to enforce them. Rhetorically, are you going to try and sue some factory in China over anyones $100 tools produced in either the hundreds or low thousands per year? The time, money, and energy involved would force you into bankrupcy. As for the morality, I agree with the previous posters. Counterfeiting is reprehensible.

[Paul Sidener]

.................We become more aware of this area in handtools as a result of threads such as this one. I read recommendations for handtools on many forums, but is seems to me that the one ones more likely to suggest a knock off design are either the UK forums or forums that cater to beginner woodworkers. In both cases the interest lies in buying as cheaply as possible. The argument/justification is usually that the original tool is too expensive. ........................

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think you hit the nail on the head there, pardon the pun. When someone is starting out trying to build a set of tools, it can be expensive. Even buying vintage, collectors can drive up the price on users too. I don't find much in antique stores around me. I don't know if it is they get sold quickly or they don't find their way into the store. That leaves me new or ebay, expensive or a gamble for junk. I usually go the expensive route. It took me a few months to save enough money in the wife don't know I have it fund, for a Lie-Nielsen #7. My wife is used to me saying, I need a new tool to build this. My wife is great, I get away with a lot. Anyways a new guy that sees two tools that look identical, is probably going to buy the one that is half the cost. They may not have figured out that cheap tools can frustrate you, by not preforming well.

There is an irony here. Some of my favorite tools are from Lie-Nielsen. Almost everything they produce is a copy of something else. They come right out and say their planes are Stanley Bedrock design. If someone tries to copy a Lie-Nielsen what would he be copying, a Lie-Nielsen or a Stanley? I know this discussion is more about Glen Drake. The Tite Mark is a often copied tool, but it is not the only one. I'm not sure if he even has a patent on his designs.

I'm not sure if I blame the stores either. They need to build a client list as well. If all they have is high end stuff, people just getting started or with different financial circumstances will not come into the store and spend their hard earned money. The stores need to stay in business as well. It is a fine line between profit and out of business. If they are out of business it will be more difficult for all of us. I prefer to buy direct, that isn't good for the stores either. I have a Woodcraft and a Rockler near by, within a half hour drive.

I am to the point, where I don't know what is right anymore. It seems the older I get the less I know. Either way it is an interesting discussion.

[Jim Koepke]

I think there is a message. Many woodworkers are looking for decent midrange stuff. Nobody needs a 50 dollar marking knife. Or a 70 dollar plane adjusting hammer.

People do crazy things with their money or to get their money. Some want the prize without the commitment.

In my case the desire for a plane adjusting mallet/hammer and a decent marking knife caused me to make my own. Anyone who does make their own can quickly see why prices are what they are.

Mortise chisels were another item wanted but out of my range for new, this was before Narex were marketed. After a lot of patience and lost bids a pair of old beat up mortise chisels were won at a very reasonable price. (even less than a pair of Narex) They are not as pretty as new and they both needed handles. But if settling for some 200 year old used chisels is what it took to put them in my shop, so be it.

To me there is no justification for supporting counterfeiters/pirates of any stripe. Finding ways to make some extra cash to pay the price of admission is not that difficult.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

It seems the older I get the less I know.

Isn't that the real wisdom of age?

If what one doesn't know is shrinking, then nothing has been learned.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Isn't that the real wisdom of age?

If what one doesn't know is shrinking, then nothing has been learned.

jtk

And this may be one of the lesser reasons counterfeit tools proliferate! Some entering the hobby or profession have don't have the needed experience to make or rehab, along without the budget and settle with or without the knowledge that what they are getting not being either entirely satisfactory or the real McCoy.

[Winton Applegate]

We can blame China or some other country for the loss of American jobs, but the truth is that what has driven jobs overseas is our own preoccupation with money. America’s price-shopping robots couldn’t care less where something is made or how long it will last. Their only concern is price. What they don’t understand is that businesses will fail if they can’t cover costs. Price competition quickly morphs into cost competition. Lower costs mean lower quality. It’s a vicious cycle that impacts the quality of life for everyone.

I look at knock off tools like I look at harbor freight (not capitalized intentionally). . .
like I look at two dogs doing it in the yard
(even less in the case of h.f.)
I don't look
I've seen it before.
I have no interest in the details or lack there of.
I will give a specific case in point :
Birthday coming up . . .
I have been searching tool venders for a 100mm (four inch roughly) dial caliper. I have wanted a shorty for my apron all my life and put up with the longer ones.
I have and use digital but for my home shop (not daily use and cold temps) I want a non battery version and the solar powered (powered by the lights) does not seem to come in a shorty version.
I want this one. I was afraid or I think I heard that they have been farmed out to Taiwan. I just happened to see when I was enlarging to look at the jaws (for carbide wear pads) that on the dial was printed "Made In Japan".
I can get a knock off for $30 or a real deal in the longer 150 mm for about $100 but I want the shorty.
I am going to pay the nut and get the cool one. I don't need the .01mm accuracy .02 would be fine but the small one only comes in the finer pitch as it were.
Well with any luck I can get Q to get it.
She may put me out on the deck for the night when she sees that price though.
Ah the sorted and embarrassing life the tool junkie leads. I would quit if I could.
but what then ? ? ? ?
Boredom and h.f.
well that was sobering.
I'm placing the order today my self.
Knock offs . . . hah . . . knock this off . . .

PS: I could get the 150mm and saw off 50mm and save $50 . . .
I may have mentioned in :
Surprised, dissapointed, puzzeled
Life in general has that effect on me.
You'll get used to it with time.
The only source of sanity if not grace are Douglas Adams books.
that was a good example
to save money I have to buy the big one and saw off part of it.
That makes sense . . . right ? . . .

[Reinis Kanders]

I had a similar experience with long brad point bits from eBay. They just would not drill holes even in a soft pine. Cutting edges had some burr, I cleaned it up, but still no good. I guess I will use them as a fire starters

I bought some extra screw drivers out of a hardware store "bargain bin". Screw drivers are one of those things that need to be in 4 or 5 locations anyway (house, shop, vehicles, tool boxes), so, why not? These must have been a China, or India deal, because though they LOOKED like a tool, they just bent when I actually tried to use them. I did pick up a couple Stanleys, and some"perfect handle" screwdrivers since, in old tool lots on the auction site. They were bonus scores, since I was more interested in other tools in those lots.

[dan sherman]

In my case the desire for a plane adjusting mallet/hammer and a decent marking knife caused me to make my own. Anyone who does make their own can quickly see why prices are what they are.

Perhaps its because I come from a fairly technical background, but to me a lot of the boutique hand tools are over priced. I see lots of designs that aren't optimized to minimize production time, or material waste. It blows my mind how many makers do everything manually as well.

Finding ways to make some extra cash to pay the price of admission is not that difficult.

I think that depends on your place in society. I have family members who would need to save for months to pay for what I would consider an impulse purchase. Once they had the money saved, they would probably buy something for their children instead of feeling guilty because they bought themselves a toy.


As a previous poster said, the middle of the road hand tool market is non existent.

[Bob Snyder - Austin]

My Tite Mark marking gauge from Glen Drake tools just arrived. Awesome piece of craftsmanship and helps to make sure these wonderful toolmakers stay around. I was on the fence about getting one, but when I read his blog entry, I decided to go ahead and pull the trigger. Couldn't be happier.

[Jim Koepke]

Perhaps its because I come from a fairly technical background, but to me a lot of the boutique hand tools are over priced. I see lots of designs that aren't optimized to minimize production time, or material waste. It blows my mind how many makers do everything manually as well.

Many of them are high priced and likely out of my price range. Considering all that has to be done to make some of those tools, the price doesn't look all that bad. Add in the bills that have to be paid, the insurance carried and many other expenses of being in business, those prices are easy to understand. Even if that is the case it is not right to pass something off as being the same at a "better" price.

At the local farmers market some folks think the price is a bit high on my potting benches. My willingness to meet Walmart's price has them smiling until they see Walmart priced theirs a lot higher than mine. Besides theirs doesn't look as good in the picture.

Having worked in production shops it is easy to see some things can be made in high production and the cost lowered. Does that mean there will be a market for them?

Maybe my shop could get a lot of power tools and cut the time it takes me to make a potting bench. Then all the noise in my shop would make me want to do something else.

I think that depends on your place in society. I have family members who would need to save for months to pay for what I would consider an impulse purchase. Once they had the money saved, they would probably buy something for their children instead of feeling guilty because they bought themselves a toy.

Yes, some people are disadvantaged. Yes, times are tough. The times have been tough for somebody for as long as my memory goes. There are things that would make improvements in my shop. My desire for some of these is enough to keep me looking for tools to rehabilitate and sell to make the extra money it will take to afford them. My desire is not enough to get me up and out to do it every day.

As a previous poster said, the middle of the road hand tool market is non existent.

Sadly there are only a few choices for the cash strapped woodworker. It mostly comes down to purchasing quality used tools. The problem with that is many people do not want to take time putting a tool into working order. Could that be why a century ago woodworkers were often referred to as mechanics? Maybe it was because woodworking was just one facet of being mechanical.

Was it Jim Hightower who said, "the only thing in the middle of the road is a couple of stripes and dead armadillos?"

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

My Tite Mark marking gauge from Glen Drake tools just arrived.

It is my most used marking gauge and yes, it is an "Awesome piece of craftsmanship."

jtk