Counterfeit/Knockoff Tools

[Jim Koepke]

Glen Drake talks about a couple hammers sold as his coming back for repair.

The only problem is they weren't made by him.

http://www.glen-drake.com/blog/knockoffs/

jtk

[george wilson]

amazing that someone would resort to copying those. Do they sell enough volume to make it worthwhile?

[Frederick Skelly]

That stinks. And hes right - its terribly hard to stop.

Looks like he does nice tools. Liked that 3.5 oz plane hammer. Been wondering if I should buy LV's. Think I'll save up some pennies and try this man out.

[Paul Sidener]

I guess that is the world we live in. That is why I always buy direct from the producer, whenever possible. The bonus to that is all the profit goes to the producer. Weather it be a smaller guy like Glen Drake, or the larger ones like Lie-Nielsen. To steal from them can cost the ability for them to develop and produce other tools.

[Kees Heiden]

Of course, counterfeits suck, and when you know about a tool being a counterfeit, better not to buy it. But it isn't all black and white and often difficult for consumers to decide what is right and wrong. I'm afraid a few people boycotting woodcraft is not going to help. Where to draw the line? The big box stores overhere are probably full of counterfeits too, but I still need them for all kinds of stuff.

Being a small player in a capitalistic world sucks. This is nothing new btw. And has always been normal business. When someone has success with a new product others would be quick to get a piece of the pie too. Patenting a hammer is probably impossible and proving a copyright claim won't be easy either. A one man shop has to stay on its toes, keep improving and designing new products, seeking other ways to make himself standing out from the rest.

It's easy to blame the capitalists, but it brought us our modern world too. I don't think anyone would like to go back to the protected trade from the middle ages.

[Michael Ray Smith]

That stinks. And hes right - its terribly hard to stop.

Yes, it's sometimes hard to stop, but for someone who makes a living making and selling a product, counterfeits can be devastating, both because of the loss of the immediate sale and from the damage to reputation caused by lower quality products. That's precisely the reason trademark law was developed. Trademarks weren't intended to identify the product so much as to identify the manufacturer of the product as an assurance of quality to the buyer. Trademark law was developed to give manufacturers an exclusive right to place a unique mark on products and to give buyers confidence that products bearing that mark were indeed made by that particular manufacturer. So in a sense, trademark infringement was an early form of identity theft. Although things have changed a bit (e.g., trademarks can be licensed for use by others, which is sort of inconsistent with the idea that a mark identifies the person who made the product), trademark law still serves that same basis purpose, and some legal fees paid to an intellectual property attorney to protect a trademark can be money well spent. It can be a very expensive proposition to stop someone who is determined to make and sell counterfeits, particularly if the infringer is in another country with weak intellectual property laws, but sometimes a simple cease-and-desist letter is enough to take care of the problem. (Fair Disclosure: I'm a lawyer, but not an intellectual property lawyer, and this is neither legal advice nor a solicitation. It is, however, a recommendation to see an intellectual property lawyer if someone is selling counterfeits of your tools or other products.)

[Jim Koepke]

From what is alluded in Glen Drakes piece on this it sounds like he may have a case against the retailer.

I do not know law, but it sounds like a case for a cease & desist order with a possible ruling for damages for each one they have sold.

Especially if they are using a picture of his product on the box.

jtk

[Phillip West]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned..One company copies(yes they have improved it some but they still used a pre existing design regardless) one tool then another company copies them or that tool? Who did they copy, the copiers or the original? BUT this is clearly different.Especially using a pic of his tool..Thats very clearly crossing the line..
Its very hard to stop and its just as rampant in the cutlery world..Big name semi-custom makers like Rick Henderer are copied ver batum by Chinese knockoffs, so are other makers..Its hard to enforce laws in countries were our laws have no meaning.

[Jim Koepke]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned.

My tendency is to buy North American made tools. Often it means buying old tools. Too many items from low cost labor parts of the globe have proven to only look like a tool instead of being a usable object. Too many people have put in their time, labor and investment to revive a market for quality tools to feel good about saving a few dollars only to put the innovators out of business.

We currently have very lax consumer and even producer protection laws.

At one time the country of origin was clearly marked on a product, not in small type under a stick on label.

At one time "brass hardware" was made of brass, not brass plated.

Today we live in a fool's paradise where if the sales material says the 10¢ item is the same as the $1 item we naturally believe this canard.

Buyer beware is more important now than it ever has been. There are too many unscrupulous people out and about who do not care how they get your money, just as long as they get it.

jtk

[Roger Rettenmeier]

I bought some extra screw drivers out of a hardware store "bargain bin". Screw drivers are one of those things that need to be in 4 or 5 locations anyway (house, shop, vehicles, tool boxes), so, why not? These must have been a China, or India deal, because though they LOOKED like a tool, they just bent when I actually tried to use them. I did pick up a couple Stanleys, and some"perfect handle" screwdrivers since, in old tool lots on the auction site. They were bonus scores, since I was more interested in other tools in those lots.

[Frederick Skelly]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned..One company copies(yes they have improved it some but they still used a pre existing design regardless) one tool then another company copies them or that tool? Who did they copy, the copiers or the original? BUT this is clearly different.Especially using a pic of his tool..Thats very clearly crossing the line..
Its very hard to stop and its just as rampant in the cutlery world..Big name semi-custom makers like Rick Henderer are copied ver batum by Chinese knockoffs, so are other makers..Its hard to enforce laws in countries were our laws have no meaning.

There was a serious problem with counterfeit electrical breakers a few years back. Someone was copying the design of a major manufacturer's stuff and the copies were not reliable. Imagine thinking you have adequate circuit protection and when you need it, it doesnt work. It was a terrible mess to clean up.

[Derek Cohen]

Piracy of designs has been rife for a long, long time. More obvious examples are power tools, where design patents expire and versions of a successful (for example) tablesaw are manufactured by various factories and badged under their own name. We become more aware of this area in handtools as a result of threads such as this one. I read recommendations for handtools on many forums, but is seems to me that the one ones more likely to suggest a knock off design are either the UK forums or forums that cater to beginner woodworkers. In both cases the interest lies in buying as cheaply as possible. The argument/justification is usually that the original tool is too expensive.

Where lines of design ownership become blurred - and a "loop hole" for morality (or should that be immorality) creeps in - lies with those tools that have been around for many years, and the design changes are not always obvious (but enough to say that the design is "different"). Sometimes it is Trade Dress that is the issue. Examples being the Bailey handplane (LN vs early WoodRiver), ongoing knock offs of LN and LV spokeshaves, and ongoing knock offs of the Tite-Mark and LV wheel gauges. I have also seen the Chinese-version of the Tite-Mark hammers on sale at Woodshows and one local woodstore in Perth. I must add that this is not about Chinese factories, but about piracy of design. I know of sellers of look-a-like Blue Spruce marking knives in the UK, and the makers and buyers there do not see any issue in copying the design or buying the (cheaper) product.

The question is what can we do about this? The original makers could take legal action to protect themselves, but this is unlikely as most involved are small businesses that cannot afford the legal expenses. There are probably ways of taking out patents and enforcing them, but this is way outside my area of knowledge. What we can do is talk about this on the forums, to our mates, in discussions - just raise awareness. None of these people will thank you, however.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

None of these people will thank you, however.

They may not thank us, but if they can stay in business they may make the quality tools many of us prefer.

They may not thank us today, but they will likely express thanks when we do business with them.

Only a few new tools are purchased for my shop. When they are, it feels better to reward the person who invested in designing and bringing a tool to market than to save a few bucks buying from someone who is trying to take advantage of the ingenuity of others.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

Regarding the "not thanking us", I was referring to potential buyers of the knockoffs, not the manufacturers of the original designs. I agree with all your sentiment about keeping the good guys in business. That has been my argument all along.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Regarding the "not thanking us", I was referring to potential buyers of the knockoffs, not the manufacturers of the original designs.

Thanks for the clarification.

Most of the buyers of knockoffs will likely justify their purchase with their savings.

jtk