Shaper based/other profile & edge sanding solutions?

[ian maybury]

Hoping for some blue skies thinking or equipment options here. Very tight for floor space, and so can't realistically manage another floor machine - but could use edge and profile/template sanding capability. Might otherwise have thought of an oscillating belt edge sander. A friend has a wide belt sander locally which is available for use when needed - so that requirement is covered.

I have a pillar drill (about to be upgraded), Hammer F3 tilting shaper and router table and am seeking to come up with some options. Router based options look a bit flimsy...

There's some nice looking drum sanders from 40mm dia upwards to fit the shaper, and which can be fitted with a guide bearing for profiling to templates. e.g. http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5962-sanding-drum.aspx Straight edge sanding may also (?) be an option with the shaper fences set up to use a large diameter sanding drum in jointer mode. Cranking the spindle up and down would expose fresh abrasive. Min rpm and the risk of burning is concern.

There's lots of drum sander options available to mount in a pillar drill when a smaller diameter is required. e.g. http://www.axminster.co.uk/fixing-gl...s/drum-sanders Failing that a portable bench type oscillting sander may be an option.

All of this line of thought presumes that a non oscillating spindle running abrasive strip off a roll can do a decent job and deliver a reasonable life between changes of abrasive - i've no experience with the oscillating/purpose made abrasive sleeve type.

Are there perhaps other ways to tackle this requirement?

Thanks ian

[Jesse Busenitz]

I think you'll find that a non oscillating sander will get hot very quick which kill you sandpaper. I have a non osc edge belt sander and I have to make sure it's not getting too warm. Sorry no good suggestions for you.

[Mel Fulks]

This is a detail guy posting without much detail, a lot of things are template trimmed so smoothly they don't need
much,if any sanding. In extreme cases you can even use clockwise and counter clockwise HSS pattern cutting. What's to sand?
I think we need more detail.

[ian maybury]

Pardon me Mel.

I'd say typically edge sanding of ply and solid wood to smooth up a curve - fairly normal applications. It's about investing to set up some profile finishing capability which will be available ongoing and cover as many jobs well as possible - rather than setting up for a single project. I'd tend to be a light user of sanding for mostly final cleaning up anyway - i seem to end up cutting fairly close to the line most of the time.

It'd be possible to buy a floor mounted oscillating spindle sander like the Jet, but space is extremely tight and the hope is to get by decently with existing equipment, or with benchtop stuff that can be pulled out for use.

Sample jobs might be to e.g. smooth and finish to a line a router pattern that's been cut from ply using a jigsaw or bandsaw and is consequently a little rough. Or to smooth the edges of cut outs in solid wood for use in cabinetry - to e.g. clean up the cut out in the bottoms of the sides of cabinet to form feet, or finish a curved table top or maybe a chair base. Or maybe to fair in the bottom edge of a curved top rail for a kitchen cabinet door or similar. Or even help with final shaping of awkward areas of 3D curved/more sculptural pieces similar to say a cabriolet leg.

The straight sanding requirement using the shaper fence might be simply to clean up a straight edge on a piece of ply where running it over the jointer would likely nick the knives, or as one option to remove power jointing marks on hardwood.

I guess there's two basic questions behind the query. Firstly how effective/long lasting is a non oscillating drum - Felder and the like charge quite a lot for shaper sanding drums which might suggest they regard them as a fairly serious solution. Jesse's point is the concern - is such a set up capable of doing a decent amount of work before needing changing or causing burning? Even on well chosen good quality paper changed fairly frequently? (in comparison with an oscillating spindle in the same situation - an oscillating belt for example has an enormous area of abrasive in use and must by definition last far better)

The hope is to arrange for this sort of capability without the cost and more particularly the floor space requirement of a separate e.g. combined oscillating belt and spindle machine. It'd also avoids the need for additional dust collection drops etc. Leading to the second question - are there other ways of arranging for this sort of capability using existing/low cost/compact equipment not mentioned here? Is for example a smallish oscillating sander like say the Jet bench top model a reasonably capable item?

[Mel Fulks]

If you are setting up to take in piece work . I would try to work with mdf pattern cut with carbide and avoid plywood. With
solid wood ,I think my earlier post covers a lot. Curves connected by a small flat require some hand work and pieces that
are unusually thick need more work. Bandsawing leaving as much as an eighth inch extra can be done pretty fast . Then trimmed with either high grade HSS or carbide. There are some shaper type machines made to trim stacks of pieces at
once. I've seen them,never used them. For most of the work I've done the goal of all involved was more about working to
minimize ,and even eliminate sanding. When a lot of sanding is needed it has to be carefully supervised, of everyone will
be working at their own speed,with the grit of their choosing.

[ian maybury]

It's not for production/volume use Mel, just to figure a way to gain a basic profile sanding capability. Perhaps i've got something wrong, but short of having a CNC router or whatever using a router or for that matter the shaper with a bearing needs a smooth template in the first place...

[Mel Fulks]

That is true,you need a template, but since they can ,in many cases,be smoothed with coarse sandpaper backed by appropriately flexible
strips faster than you can completely sand one or two of actual product it's not unusual to make one for even small jobs. Some make a conection with a CNC owner and have templates made. With quality cutters in three or four inch diameter heads you get a much better surface than what router bits usually do. That greatly reduces sanding. Perhaps my
answers don't fit your aplication ,but I always plan a job with sanding as little as possible as a high priority, as it saves time overall.

[Peter Quinn]

Ian, you're in a hard spot on this. The pillar drill (pretty sure we in the states call this a drill press) versions are effective, but will pretty much wreck the drill press if used frequently enough. Problem with the shaper is spindle speed, most of them don't turn slow enough. The amana shaper head has a max rpm of 4500? But most sanders don't turn that fast, and for a reason, the paper wants to turn around 1500 RPM, or under 2K in any event. Go too fast, burning can occur. My minimax t40 (older model) and some other shapers have a 1500RPM speed meant for pattern sanding. What is your lowest RPM available? It may still work above the ideal rating, would require testing. But just like a drum sander, if your spindle doesn't oscillate, you will get straight line scratches, which aren't a problem for templates but can be in solid stock.

I'm largely with Mel on this one, my whole approach is to avoid sanding, and when I have to to avoid using machine sanders when possible. They tend to do more harm than good for me freehand, the only reason I could see to use a bearing guided pattern sander on a shaper would be for stock that was very challenging and couldn't be done on a shaper with pattern cutter. For faring curves on patterns I use PSA adhesive backed sandpaper on flexible strips or shapes of the appropriated negative of the pattern. I get by in the home shop with a little bench top model that stores well for when I really need to snap something quickly with a machine, no room or budget or real need for a fixed model. Ive considered the shaper head, but again, not much need for the functionality it adds.

[ian maybury]

I meant a drill press Peter, we use pillar/pedestal drill interchangeably over here. My current model is a rubbish Eastern model. It's for changing, but has too much runout to be a very effective sander. I do have some drums which i run on it at times.

The fog may be clearing on shaper sanding. My Hammer shaper only goes down to 3,000rpm which judging by experience of easy burning with a 1,450 rpm disc sander (albeit on a larger diameter which multiplies the surface speed to x3 what even a 3in spindle at 1,450 rpm would run) and what you say is looking for trouble. Your purpose set up/low speed Minimax would be a different matter, but even the Felder and Format 4 shapers apart from elctronic variable speed models don't seem to go any lower. I'm a little wary of grit all over the place too.

Strictly speaking i'm not a big fan of sanding either, and have hand planes, hand sanders etc available for smoothing too. As yourself and Mel i've so far got by with hand sanding using blocks etc. It's actually mostly on tightly curved templates and the like that the need has arisen so far. The shaper option kicked in as a possible way of making extra use of existing equipment/avoiding buying more (and my instinct is to try to think in terms of complete solutions), but the 30mm dia spindle means that he minimum drum dia is limited to about 40mm so it's not even ideal for tight profiling. Plus the drums are quite expensive.

Sounds like i might be another case where a bench top oscillating spindle sander might make sense, and leave it at that...

[Paul McGaha]

Ian,

If you go with an oscillating spindle sander I suggest you look at the footprint and the weight of the bench top models compared to the floor models pretty carefully. I bought a JET bench top model a few years ago from a creeker. I like having it and I'm glad I bought it but it is rather large for a bench top machine. The fellow I bought it from had it mounted on a shop made mobile cabinet. I removed it from the cabinet and move it around by hand but at some point I think I'll make another cabinet for it. Adding a cabinet large enough for a stable mount for the bench top model is going to be pretty close to the footprint of a floor model.

PHM

[Jim Andrew]

I have an edge sander, and just a bump is all it takes to smooth edges. Have found that sanding first before routing seems to leave a smoother cut. I just take a foam pad and old ros disc and make a swipe on shaped edges. Usually that is all it takes to dull sharp edges.

[ian maybury]

Thanks Paul. Looking at the Jet sanders last night the bench top model is certainly no toy to haul about - definitely not with a bad back like mine. Yet I also found myself trying to figure out a way to fit the floor model given it's bigger table - the bench machine isn't all that big. Have you found it reliable? I've seen a comment from the UK (which may not be typical) that the table tilt lock isn't as solid as it could be....

It wouldn't be ideal, but i have a loft over my shop accesible by a wide stairwell which i use for storage and finishing, and could fit a floor model up there. It'd give good exercise! That being the case it's tempting to look at even one of those combined belt and spindle oscillating edge sanders - they don't seem to be a great deal more expensive than the floor standing Jet, and there's more choice here.

The ability switch off the oscillation and run a guide bearing sounds like it might be worth having at times too, but i don't know if that's an option on those machines. Guess the shaper is always there for that - speed and all.

I have a similar view at times on sanding Jim. I don't necessarily do a lot, but at the same time find myself very regularly cleaning edges and the like with a block.

[J.R. Rutter]

I wanted something similar in a sanding machine, Ian. After 6 months of searching, I came across an old SCMI/Unilev sander that I bought. It uses smooth running pneumatic oscillation and has an open platen on one side. The other side is a small platen set up like a jointer for feeding long pieces through. The entire platen and belt portion moves vertically on a screw jack setup to be able to use the entire belt over time. The drive end drum is threaded on top and takes sanding spindles. There is an accessory table to raise the workpiece. I know that are similar machines still in production, but I can't immediately remember who makes/sells them. They range in price from very expensive to extremely expensive.

Here are a couple of pictures of mine to give you a better idea. After using this one, two different associates of mine bought the same machine on the used market. I sold the spindles and riser table to one of them because, as has been mentioned, without oscillation on the spindle, it loads up and burns quickly.

Here is my original post about it, I re-added the pics today.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...c-sander-gloat

[Bill Adamsen]

Ian: I have a floor model stationary Oscillating Spindle and it's a pretty versatile machine. I'm embarrassed to say I use it as much for steel (w/o DC) and aluminum as I do for wood. I built an "offset" fence system for edges which works ok and it gets use. I also use it to smooth out templates for routing which works great. For instance, I just used it to make this vacuum press, which would have been challenging without it. Surprisingly, the dust collection on the unit (just a 4" port) works extremely well - though I keep thinking about building an additional "hood" since I put an extra blast gate right next to it. The older machines like the Max have a nice small footprint. Make sure you get all the possible spindles ... I think a full set is ten. Asking owners on Vintage Machinery might be a good way to get opinions on the merits of each brand.

[Paul McGaha]

Thanks Paul. Looking at the Jet sanders last night the bench top model is certainly no toy to haul about - definitely not with a bad back like mine. Yet I also found myself trying to figure out a way to fit the floor model given it's bigger table - the bench machine isn't all that big. Have you found it reliable? I've seen a comment from the UK (which may not be typical) that the table tilt lock isn't as solid as it could be....

It wouldn't be ideal, but i have a loft over my shop accesible by a wide stairwell which i use for storage and finishing, and could fit a floor model up there. It'd give good exercise! That being the case it's tempting to look at even one of those combined belt and spindle oscillating edge sanders - they don't seem to be a great deal more expensive than the floor standing Jet, and there's more choice here.

The ability switch off the oscillation and run a guide bearing sounds like it might be worth having at times too, but i don't know if that's an option on those machines. Guess the shaper is always there for that - speed and all.

I have a similar view at times on sanding Jim. I don't necessarily do a lot, but at the same time find myself very regularly cleaning edges and the like with a block.

I think it's a decent machine for a part time hobbyist shop like mine. It's done ok. The table tilt lock could be more robust but it does work. At 82 pounds it's really not that portable though. Not that I'm complaining about it I'm really glad I have it.

Good luck with the decision and the purchase.

PHM