Story on Lumber Liquidators

[Dave Lehnert]

Why is a product with high levels of formaldehyde cheaper?

[Mike Henderson]

Why is a product with high levels of formaldehyde cheaper?

The glue that does not outgass formaldehyde is more expensive than the glue that does.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike, that's a fairly old issue.

The latest for them is that The Department of Justice is considering charging them under The Lacey Act for illegal harvesting of timber.

Interesting company.

Personally I no longer have faith in whether my local source for imported timber has actually done the research to prove that it's from sustainable growth and I now only buy local timber..............Regards, Rod.

I think you're thinking of the problem they have with sourcing Russian (I think it was) lumber while there were sanctions against it. This is a different, and new, issue.

Mike

[Tony Zona]

As for me, I would not touch any product Bob Vila has ever endorsed, but that's just me. I'm in the minority.

[Kent A Bathurst]

As for me, I would not touch any product Bob Vila has ever endorsed, but that's just me. I'm in the minority.

No. You are not in the minority.

See you and raise you: I would never watch a TV show with Bob Vila on it.

[Mike Cozad]

Just wait until they have to comply with all the regulations in China that we do here. Your cheap Chinese made products, across the board, won't be so cheap any more.

They have a disregard for doing the right thing over there, from this issue to lead in paint for kids toys to food issues, it's not something new, that's how they operate at the low end of the market. If you want top tier products, they have them to, but for the price you pay for that, you can certainly make it here.

Someone on this forum visited China to look for products and they went to a place that cut granite, etc, and I think he said there were people working with no masks, or little masks at all. Who works in a granite cutting factory with no masks? My guess is they don't live to see their 40's or 50's much from that factory floor. But hey, we get cheap granite from it, so it much be okay, right?

I'm sure most have seen this but thought I would post the link, as its a fine example of Scott's comments. I was working in metal stamping when I found this researching training material for some lean training I was developing. We were simply amazed by it....
Chinese Transfer Press: http://youtu.be/9fnVhDb-u8g

[Chris Damm]

My understanding is that it is limited to the laminate flooring and not the hardwood flooring they sell. Is that correct?

It's only the Chinese made laminate flooring.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm sure most have seen this but thought I would post the link, as its a fine example of Scott's comments. I was working in metal stamping when I found this researching training material for some lean training I was developing. We were simply amazed by it....
Chinese Transfer Press: http://youtu.be/9fnVhDb-u8g

Wow....as a guy who spent most of his life on a shop floor, that one left my jaw dropped open.

I'm not at all defending the CEO because I believe you have a responsibility to make sure what you sell is what you say it is, but the part about them putting the labels on that said they were compliant with California law, when they weren't compliant is the part that gets me. If you took it to the worst level, then the CEO instructed them to do it, or the best case for him, he was clueless (not sure I believe that), but none the less, the fact that they will do whatever it takes to ship the product to the USA, no matter what is the disgusting part for me. How deep that knowledge was is what's going to cause them to sink or swim, and you have to feel certain their defense will be "We didn't know" and the blaming it on the Chinese factory who won't spend one day in court, so it'll be easy to say and not have an evidence to show otherwise. They aren't going to call the plant manager from China to testify that he has emails telling him to falsify records.

[Phil Thien]

Wow....as a guy who spent most of his life on a shop floor, that one left my jaw dropped open.

I'm not at all defending the CEO because I believe you have a responsibility to make sure what you sell is what you say it is, but the part about them putting the labels on that said they were compliant with California law, when they weren't compliant is the part that gets me. If you took it to the worst level, then the CEO instructed them to do it, or the best case for him, he was clueless (not sure I believe that), but none the less, the fact that they will do whatever it takes to ship the product to the USA, no matter what is the disgusting part for me. How deep that knowledge was is what's going to cause them to sink or swim, and you have to feel certain their defense will be "We didn't know" and the blaming it on the Chinese factory who won't spend one day in court, so it'll be easy to say and not have an evidence to show otherwise. They aren't going to call the plant manager from China to testify that he has emails telling him to falsify records.

I agree, this is going to turn into a giant finger-pointing cluster-you-know-what.

Ultimately, though, the buck stops with the man at the top. If he hired people willing to lie to his face over the safety of the product they're sourcing for 10-15% less than any similarly sized competitors, then he just didn't want to know.

[Scott Shepherd]

He's got a decent leg to stand on, I'm sure his documentation all says that it's CARB certified, and all the boxes say it's CARB certified, and the State of California apparently has a third party certify the factories the stuff is made in, which gives them the authority to put CARB certified on the boxes.

His defense would be "We ordered CARB certified, the box said it was CARB certified, and the State of California approved the manufacturer for production of CARB certified products. We didn't certify the manufacturer, the State of California did, and we just used their approved supplier". I could see him successfully using that defense, even though the buck stops with him. He'll play the victim in it all for sure.

Here's their website info about it all....

http://www.lumberliquidators.com/sus...th-and-safety/

[Mike Henderson]

Wow....as a guy who spent most of his life on a shop floor, that one left my jaw dropped open.

I'm not at all defending the CEO because I believe you have a responsibility to make sure what you sell is what you say it is, but the part about them putting the labels on that said they were compliant with California law, when they weren't compliant is the part that gets me. If you took it to the worst level, then the CEO instructed them to do it, or the best case for him, he was clueless (not sure I believe that), but none the less, the fact that they will do whatever it takes to ship the product to the USA, no matter what is the disgusting part for me. How deep that knowledge was is what's going to cause them to sink or swim, and you have to feel certain their defense will be "We didn't know" and the blaming it on the Chinese factory who won't spend one day in court, so it'll be easy to say and not have an evidence to show otherwise. They aren't going to call the plant manager from China to testify that he has emails telling him to falsify records.

I would not be willing to buy the defense of "We didn't know it was not CARB compliant". When some company offers to supply you with lumber that's significantly less expensive than other factories, a rational person would ask "How are they doing that?" and "Why isn't everyone else buying from them?" and get the lumber tested.

Ignorance, when the ignorance is willful, is not a defense.

Mike

[And California does not certify factories. They publish the testing standards and the manufacturer is suppose to test to those standards.]

[Scott Shepherd]

[And California does not certify factories. They publish the testing standards and the manufacturer is suppose to test to those standards.]

True, but they have a third party that certifies the companies in China, so they do have some responsibility in this, if their third party certified the place and it's producing non compliant materials.

"To comply with the CARB standards, applicable laminate and engineered flooring and accessories sold by Lumber Liquidators are purchased from manufacturers whose production methods have been certified by a Third Party Certifier approved by the State of California to meet the CARB standards; or from suppliers who source composite wood raw materials only from certified manufacturers."

[Jerome Stanek]

Is it certified in other states Every one knows California can be a little over board on some things.

[Scott Shepherd]

A quick look around the internet and it's a bit of a problem for anyone that thinks it all needs to be ripped out and replaced. In just a quick glance, it looks like most everything used to build a house has formaldehyde in it. The pressed board that made the bathroom vanities, the kitchen cabinets, the core floor that the Lumber Liquidators flooring is nailed to, the insulation under the house, in the attic, and in the walls, etc, etc, etc.

Seems OSB and pressed boards are really bad for it, so if someone wants to rid their home from it, they might have to start with a bulldozer.

[Pat Barry]

You can't trust 60 Minutes - they are into the same sort of sensationalism as other "news" shows. Who do you trust? Its all a bunch of B_
"Lumber Liquidators said in multiple statements throughout the day that it complies with applicable regulations regarding its products, including California standards for formaldehyde emissions. "These attacks are driven by a small group of short-selling investors who are working together for the sole purpose of making money by lowering our stock price," the company said in one statement.
Shares in the flooring retailer had also fallen on news of the impending report last week. All told, the stock lost about 43 percent over the last week.

The company sought to calm customers and investors, insisting that "our laminate floors are completely safe to use as intended."
Lumber Liquidators said that it believes the CBS show used an "improper test method." The company added that it has documentation to support every step of its production process.
The flooring retailer also alleged in a statement that its chairman had addressed the company's test methodology, but "60 Minutes" had chosen not to include that information."