Story on Lumber Liquidators

[Pat Barry]

Also
""Short sellers like Mr. Tilson make a living on manufacturing doubt about publicly traded companies like Lumber Liquidators. In this case, Mr. Tilson has trumpeted the fact that he was the impetus behind '60 Minutes' running this story," the company said after Tilson's Monday interview.
"Mr. Tilson is executing a well-established and profitable playbook: publicly speculate about a company's success and use a compliant media to execute on his strategy to drive down a company's valuation for his own personal gain," the statement continued. "These motives and methods are wrong, and we will fight these false attacks on all fronts."

Those statements right there make me think this is all much ado about nothing - but "Mr" Tilson should go to jail for slander.

[Mike Henderson]

True, but they have a third party that certifies the companies in China, so they do have some responsibility in this, if their third party certified the place and it's producing non compliant materials.

"To comply with the CARB standards, applicable laminate and engineered flooring and accessories sold by Lumber Liquidators are purchased from manufacturers whose production methods have been certified by a Third Party Certifier approved by the State of California to meet the CARB standards; or from suppliers who source composite wood raw materials only from certified manufacturers."

No matter what the chain of "certification", LL has a responsibility to sell products that meet the CARB standards. If they sell products that are not compliant, for whatever reason, they are still responsible. Their recourse is to sue the supplier of the product to recover their costs of replacing the product, and the penalties they have to pay. Of course, their chance of recovering anything in the courts of China are pretty slim.

Arguing that they were deceived might be good PR but it won't help them in court or with the regulators.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Also
""Short sellers like Mr. Tilson make a living on manufacturing doubt about publicly traded companies like Lumber Liquidators. In this case, Mr. Tilson has trumpeted the fact that he was the impetus behind '60 Minutes' running this story," the company said after Tilson's Monday interview.
"Mr. Tilson is executing a well-established and profitable playbook: publicly speculate about a company's success and use a compliant media to execute on his strategy to drive down a company's valuation for his own personal gain," the statement continued. "These motives and methods are wrong, and we will fight these false attacks on all fronts."

Those statements right there make me think this is all much ado about nothing - but "Mr" Tilson should go to jail for slander.

Pat,

I think short selling should not be allowed for the very reason listed. I trust those who make their living on Wallstreet less than I do manufacturers. The news medias these days have little credibility too! They don't just report news, they go out generate it and of course, when wrong their apologies never get the same amount of headlines or air time as their story did.

[Mike Henderson]

A quick look around the internet and it's a bit of a problem for anyone that thinks it all needs to be ripped out and replaced. In just a quick glance, it looks like most everything used to build a house has formaldehyde in it. The pressed board that made the bathroom vanities, the kitchen cabinets, the core floor that the Lumber Liquidators flooring is nailed to, the insulation under the house, in the attic, and in the walls, etc, etc, etc.

Seems OSB and pressed boards are really bad for it, so if someone wants to rid their home from it, they might have to start with a bulldozer.

There are standards for how much formaldehyde can be outgassed. The CARB has very specific testing protocols which a product must meet. The question is not whether certain wood products outgass formaldehyde, but how much formaldehyde is outgassed from the product.

But in any case, we are addressing the specific situation of the products sold by LL. If you think other products are not meeting the standards, go short sell their stock.

Mike

[Scott Shepherd]

No matter what the chain of "certification", LL has a responsibility to sell products that meet the CARB standards.

I agree, in the end, it's all on them.

[Jerome Stanek]

I agree, in the end, it's all on them.

As I understand it there are only 13 states that follow the CARB certs. Why would this keep them from selling in states that don't.

[Mike Henderson]

As I understand it there are only 13 states that follow the CARB certs. Why would this keep them from selling in states that don't.

As long as they met the standards in those state, they'd be okay. But they sold in the states where they exceeded the standards. That's what's going to bite them.

Mike

[Pat Barry]

As long as they met the standards in those state, they'd be okay. But they sold in the states where they exceeded the standards. That's what's going to bite them.

Mike

It does sound like there is going to be quite a dispute about whether or not they failed to meet the standards. Some independent testing is in order.

[Jerome Stanek]

It should only effect them in states that are CARB required. So that wouldn't be as bad for them. 60 minutes make it sound like all they didn't meet this requirement everywhere.

[Larry Edgerton]

I checked them out when I bought flooring for my house last year, but to me they just seemed a little sleazy so I passed. After the Chinese drywall thing I don't trust them even a little bit for any building supplies.

I ended up with flooring made in Georgia by Shaw. I guess Warren Buffet is running short on cash.......

[Kent A Bathurst]

It should only effect them in states that are CARB required. So that wouldn't be as bad for them. 60 minutes make it sound like all they didn't meet this requirement everywhere.

True.

Recognize the facts, though: California has long been on the leading edge [many say bleeding edge] of environmental issues. Sooner or later, the rest of the country usually follows suit.

Plus - what is their advertising: "Banned in CA, but they're nuts anyway"? Hard row to hoe, IMO.

Two things you never want to see: Your name above the fold in the Washington Post, and Mike Wallace knocking on your door.

Wallace is gone, of course, but the point still stands.

[William Payer]

I checked them out when I bought flooring for my house last year, but to me they just seemed a little sleazy so I passed. After the Chinese drywall thing I don't trust them even a little bit for any building supplies.

I ended up with flooring made in Georgia by Shaw. I guess Warren Buffet is running short on cash.......

I used Shaw also. When we redid our kitchen a few years back LOML wanted hardwood floors. We checked out many major brands of hardwood and found their hardwood flooring (3/4 tongue and groove stuff) came from overseas, mainly China. This included common species readily available in the states like oak, maple, and cherry. We were impressed with Shaw in that they harvest their lumber from the US, and mill and finish it here also.
Fast foreward to today. We are in the process of building a new home and again searching for flooring. This time, laminate, primarily due to its high level of resistance to scratching by our two huskies.( our present home has all refinished 3/4" flooring and the dogs could easily scratch it. Shaw makes most of their laminate in the US but does import about 5-6 types from China. I emailed them and they gladly told me which lines were imported. To say the least, I am impressed by Shaw flooring.

[William Payer]

A quick look around the internet and it's a bit of a problem for anyone that thinks it all needs to be ripped out and replaced. In just a quick glance, it looks like most everything used to build a house has formaldehyde in it. The pressed board that made the bathroom vanities, the kitchen cabinets, the core floor that the Lumber Liquidators flooring is nailed to, the insulation under the house, in the attic, and in the walls, etc, etc, etc.

Seems OSB and pressed boards are really bad for it, so if someone wants to rid their home from it, they might have to start with a bulldozer.

OSB and other construction grade (read exterior exposure) materials are now manufactured with phenyl formaldehyde glues which are just about free of outgassing. They used to be made with urea formaldehyde glues, which are notorious for the level of outgassing of formaldehyde. So current OSB sheathing,roof sheathing, and subfloors are CARB compliant.
Also, MDF and particleboard can be obtained made with ( I assume the same phenyl formaldehyde glues) glues which outgas very little, and are certified both green and CARB compliant. That means your kitchen cabinets can be made with green,CARB compliant materials, despite having particle board cores.
Much has changed over the years. I remember our eyes stinging, and sinus and nose stuffiness when we first moved into our newly built 1980 home. If you use as much CARB compliant materials as possible, I would think it would be a better situation.

[Jason Roehl]

I haven't seen it in the wild, but I've caught a few episodes of "Holmes Makes It Right" lately that included the use of a drywall board that is supposed to absorb VOCs and formaldehyde gasses for up to 75 years. I'm curious how effective it is, and under what conditions it can no longer trap the gasses. I suspect it must contain activated charcoal, but that will release trapped gasses when heated.

[Scott Shepherd]

OSB and other construction grade (read exterior exposure) materials are now manufactured with phenyl formaldehyde glues which are just about free of outgassing. They used to be made with urea formaldehyde glues, which are notorious for the level of outgassing of formaldehyde. So current OSB sheathing,roof sheathing, and subfloors are CARB compliant.
Also, MDF and particleboard can be obtained made with ( I assume the same phenyl formaldehyde glues) glues which outgas very little, and are certified both green and CARB compliant. That means your kitchen cabinets can be made with green,CARB compliant materials, despite having particle board cores.
Much has changed over the years. I remember our eyes stinging, and sinus and nose stuffiness when we first moved into our newly built 1980 home. If you use as much CARB compliant materials as possible, I would think it would be a better situation.

I agree, you can build a house "today" that meets those requirements, how how many millions and millions of homes are out there, being lived in for the last 100 years or less, that have all those "horrible" things in them, from the ground to the roof. That was my point. People might be living in a house that was built in the 1980's when these laws weren't in place, now they put in the lumber liquidators material and "the sky is falling, we have to fix this right now". Well, okay, let's start by ripping up your subfloor, then ripping the walls out to get to the insulation, etc. I'd guess that the LL product was the least of their worries if they'd be living in the home for 20-30 years with all the older generation products.