Story on Lumber Liquidators

[Larry Browning]

I used Shaw also. When we redid our kitchen a few years back LOML wanted hardwood floors. We checked out many major brands of hardwood and found their hardwood flooring (3/4 tongue and groove stuff) came from overseas, mainly China. This included common species readily available in the states like oak, maple, and cherry. We were impressed with Shaw in that they harvest their lumber from the US, and mill and finish it here also.
Fast foreward to today. We are in the process of building a new home and again searching for flooring. This time, laminate, primarily due to its high level of resistance to scratching by our two huskies.( our present home has all refinished 3/4" flooring and the dogs could easily scratch it. Shaw makes most of their laminate in the US but does import about 5-6 types from China. I emailed them and they gladly told me which lines were imported. To say the least, I am impressed by Shaw flooring.

Before you give up on hardwood, look into prefinished hardwood flooring. The finish put on at the factory is FAR superior to any finish applied after installation. We have some prefinished hardwood flooring that seems to be every bit as tough as ceramic tile. I don't know what they use, but it is tough and very scratch resistant.

[Jason Roehl]

Before you give up on hardwood, look into prefinished hardwood flooring. The finish put on at the factory is FAR superior to any finish applied after installation. We have some prefinished hardwood flooring that seems to be every bit as tough as ceramic tile. I don't know what they use, but it is tough and very scratch resistant.

It's aluminum oxide (a ceramic), which is what a lot of sandpaper uses for abrasive. It's a major pain in the rear to refinish, as it doesn't sand off easily.

As for its superiority over post-installation application of finishes, that's debatable. It's tougher, to be sure, than most of what can be bought, but there are other factors, that (to me) are more important.

[Larry Edgerton]

Hey Jason. I have prefinished with an aluminum oxide finish and I was thinking I would like to put a coat of something over the whole thing next summer. Not sure about the what and how.

What say you?

Thanks, larry

[Jason Roehl]

Hey Jason. I have prefinished with an aluminum oxide finish and I was thinking I would like to put a coat of something over the whole thing next summer. Not sure about the what and how.

What say you?

Thanks, larry

Clean it well, then screen it with 150 or 180 grit (and clean it well again--vacuum and go over it with a damp terry cloth or microfiber). Then you should be able to use whatever finish you want.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree, you can build a house "today" that meets those requirements, how how many millions and millions of homes are out there, being lived in for the last 100 years or less, that have all those "horrible" things in them, from the ground to the roof. That was my point. People might be living in a house that was built in the 1980's when these laws weren't in place, now they put in the lumber liquidators material and "the sky is falling, we have to fix this right now". Well, okay, let's start by ripping up your subfloor, then ripping the walls out to get to the insulation, etc. I'd guess that the LL product was the least of their worries if they'd be living in the home for 20-30 years with all the older generation products.

For many chemicals used in modern products, the danger in them was not recognized when they were first introduced. It's been shown that formaldehyde is one of those chemicals that can cause problems in humans. It doesn't cause problems in everyone, and it can take a long time for the problems to show up - but it does cause serious problems, even leading to death, in certain people. The formaldehyde outgassed from the material used in those houses built in the '80's probably caused the death of a certain small percentage of the people who lived in those houses.

Now that we understand the problems of formaldehyde, standards have been put in place to limit the amount of formaldehyde outgassed from the construction material. Those standards have the force of law and material sold in certain states have to meet those standards.

The outgassing of formaldehyde decreases as the material ages so houses built back in the '80's, for example, would not have high levels of formaldehyde today from the material continuing to outgass. No one should even consider replacing material installed in the '80's because of formaldehyde.

But now that we understand the danger of formaldehyde outgassed from construction material, and especially where strict standards have been put in place, the construction material used needs to meet those standards.

Mike

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm not disagreeing with you Mike, I'm simply pointing out that this will be the thing to freak people out, when, if their homes were tested, their kids toys were tested, the .59 cent notebooks they buy their kids at wal-mart were tested, then the floors might not even be in the top 10 of dangerous things. And I'd also like to understand more about the floors outgassing. Where's it outgassing from? It's sealed on the top and edges. My gut tells me that it's not remotely as much coming up as one may initially think.

I don't dispute it's something we should try and build without, but formaldehyde is a natural thing, found it nature, so it's not as if breathing one second of it is going to cause health issues. We are, and have been, exposed to it since we were born in some fashion. We all grew up in houses with it, built into the homes. Doesn't mean it's right, but just that it's how we've existed for the last 100 years, so we can probably make some tweaks and make it another 100, but I'm not buying the sky is falling mentality of the story.

Again, not saying it's shouldn't be a goal to remove it, but I'm just not one of those people that gets whipped up into a frenzy of "off with their heads" because someone appears on the news. What if CBS did leave out some comments that backed up their claims about testing? Would people be going after CBS as hard as they are after LL? I doubt it.

[Scott Shepherd]

This is a quote that would make me think twice about some of it, from the LL site. If it's true, and can be verified, then the people pushing it should be in jail for trying to profit from the short selling (in my opinion).

"As recently as late 2014, testing by independent third parties confirmed that 100 percent of the randomly selected cores used in the laminates from the three factories that 60 Minutes investigated came back as fully safe and compliant with California standards."

[William Payer]

Before you give up on hardwood, look into prefinished hardwood flooring. The finish put on at the factory is FAR superior to any finish applied after installation. We have some prefinished hardwood flooring that seems to be every bit as tough as ceramic tile. I don't know what they use, but it is tough and very scratch resistant.

All of our floors inthe house, with the exception of one room, are factory pre-finished flooring. Unfortunately, even the aluminum oxide finishes, as durable as they are, are no match for the nails on our dogs. Believe me, I would much rather have solid wood, or even engineered wood floors rather than laminate, but we have learned our lesson.
Interestingly, the one floor (Bellawood from LL) that claimed the hardest, most durable finish of all pre-finished flooring, scratches the most easily! Perhaps the maple under the finish is just too soft, allowing the dogs nails to make an indentation in both the wood and finish, so the finish might not be the culprit. At any rate, we have learned that real solid wood is not in the cards for us, as long as we have the canines.

[William Payer]

This is a quote that would make me think twice about some of it, from the LL site. If it's true, and can be verified, then the people pushing it should be in jail for trying to profit from the short selling (in my opinion).

"As recently as late 2014, testing by independent third parties confirmed that 100 percent of the randomly selected cores used in the laminates from the three factories that 60 Minutes investigated came back as fully safe and compliant with California standards."

I suppose one would have to look into the random sampling and see how many samples were taken, and how spread apart ( days, weeks, months) they were to get a real idea of the validity of that statement. Just playing devil's advocate---If they took 5 samples during one shift , the statement above could be true, but it would be a very biased method of sampling holding little or no validity.

All parties in this dispute may very well be parsing their words carefully and only true hard data canback up thier (both sides) statements.

[Lee Reep]

I received a Lumber Liquidators sales flyer in the mail today. Talk about poor timing. They didn't have time to make sure they pointed out which flooring in the ad had the really high levels of formaldehyde.

[Shawn Pixley]

Is it certified in other states Every one knows California can be a little over board on some things.

Back the truck up there. First, "everyone knows..." is false and inflammitory. Second, you're criticising the state (the most populous by the way) that has done more to clean up its air than any other for that is asking for certification to provide better air quality for its citizens?

Should we be looking for the standards of the state with the most polution per capita? What logic is that?

[Pat Barry]

Back the truck up there. First, "everyone knows..." is false and inflammitory. Second, you're criticising the state (the most populous by the way) that has done more to clean up its air than any other for that is asking for certification to provide better air quality for its citizens?

Should we be looking for the standards of the state with the most polution per capita? What logic is that?

LOL - I had the same thoughts about CA but didn't say it. No offense intended

[Mel Fulks]

California had and has a lot of pollution . Has taken steps to reduce it. That doesn't mean other states need to do same
thing . Federalism works.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not disagreeing with you Mike, I'm simply pointing out that this will be the thing to freak people out, when, if their homes were tested, their kids toys were tested, the .59 cent notebooks they buy their kids at wal-mart were tested, then the floors might not even be in the top 10 of dangerous things. And I'd also like to understand more about the floors outgassing. Where's it outgassing from? It's sealed on the top and edges. My gut tells me that it's not remotely as much coming up as one may initially think.

I don't dispute it's something we should try and build without, but formaldehyde is a natural thing, found it nature, so it's not as if breathing one second of it is going to cause health issues. We are, and have been, exposed to it since we were born in some fashion. We all grew up in houses with it, built into the homes. Doesn't mean it's right, but just that it's how we've existed for the last 100 years, so we can probably make some tweaks and make it another 100, but I'm not buying the sky is falling mentality of the story.

Again, not saying it's shouldn't be a goal to remove it, but I'm just not one of those people that gets whipped up into a frenzy of "off with their heads" because someone appears on the news. What if CBS did leave out some comments that backed up their claims about testing? Would people be going after CBS as hard as they are after LL? I doubt it.

The problem with LL is that there is a standard that the flooring is required to meet. You can argue that the standard is too strict and that the formaldehyde is not harmful but the standard is based on scientific studies and the company has to meet those standards.

Let's wait and see what further studies of the materials turn up. Based on past stories of products made in China - melamine in milk which killed Chinese babies, dog treats that killed dogs, drywall that was defective - I don't have a lot of confidence that the factory that made LL's products were made to CARB standards. The price should tell you something - it's a commodity business so it's really difficult to be a lot less expensive than another factory unless you cheat.

It should also tell you something that other suppliers of flooring did not buy from that factory. Perhaps they knew something that LL just didn't want to recognize.

Mike

[Jerome Stanek]

I installed laminate flooring in my daughters house 6 years ago and her 2 large dogs have not scratched it yet she has a Pyrenees and a Newfoundland 2 different types of paws