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Thread: Story on Lumber Liquidators

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Reep View Post
    I received a Lumber Liquidators sales flyer in the mail today. Talk about poor timing. They didn't have time to make sure they pointed out which flooring in the ad had the really high levels of formaldehyde.
    I received mine a couple of days ago... don't have need for flooring right now, so directly into the recycle bin it went.

    One point I don't think anyone has touched on is HOW the testing was done. The CEO of LL mentioned the testing method used by 60 Minutes was not the same as that required by CARB certification... if that's true, then the 60 minutes testing is a red herring. If the flooring fails the true CARB testing, then LL has a serious problem on their hands.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    I agree, you can build a house "today" that meets those requirements, how how many millions and millions of homes are out there, being lived in for the last 100 years or less, that have all those "horrible" things in them, from the ground to the roof. That was my point. People might be living in a house that was built in the 1980's when these laws weren't in place, now they put in the lumber liquidators material and "the sky is falling, we have to fix this right now". Well, okay, let's start by ripping up your subfloor, then ripping the walls out to get to the insulation, etc. I'd guess that the LL product was the least of their worries if they'd be living in the home for 20-30 years with all the older generation products.

    Those older homes( we live in one built in 1980) did outgas a lot of VOC's including formaldehyde, but as I understand it, the outgassing is at its maximum the first year and quite readily diminishes (due to less and less of the noxious material in the products) thereafter. I would think a 1980's home would be close to CARB compliant in terms of outgassing after 5 or so years. I wonder if anyone has done any testing to that effect. Despite this assumption, I would not condone introducing anything to the home (even if its a home from an era where highly outgassing materials were used) at this point in time that would not be CARB compliant. Its like saying our generation remembers handling mercury in science classes, so administering anything to that generation now with high mercury levels is now O.K.

  3. #63
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    I wonder if you would use multiple contain Formaldehyde would it still meet the CARB standards. Each one off gassing just the enough to be CARB compliant

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Hintz View Post
    One point I don't think anyone has touched on is HOW the testing was done. The CEO of LL mentioned the testing method used by 60 Minutes was not the same as that required by CARB certification... if that's true, then the 60 minutes testing is a red herring. If the flooring fails the true CARB testing, then LL has a serious problem on their hands.
    I think the 60 Minutes reported responded that the tested they had done by independent labs was done in accordance w/ CARB standards.

  5. #65
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    I have never received an email from Lumber Liquidators until this morning. After I commented in this thread. Is this a coincidence, or what?

  6. #66
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    I guess LL might not be around to honor their 100 year warrants on their flooring.....

  7. #67
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    We'll agree to disagree. Air polution like radiation does not respect arbitrary man made lines on maps. Formaldehyde, is a naturally occuring substance. But so it cyanide, arsenic, chlorine, flourine, asbestos, etc...

    It seems inconscionable that we would willingly expose our citizens to known unsafe conditions when we don't have to.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Pixley View Post
    We'll agree to disagree. Air polution like radiation does not respect arbitrary man made lines on maps. Formaldehyde, is a naturally occuring substance. But so it cyanide, arsenic, chlorine, flourine, asbestos, etc...

    It seems inconscionable that we would willingly expose our citizens to known unsafe conditions when we don't have to.
    I don't think a single person in this thread has recommended that we don't try to make things safer for people. Not one. What some of us are saying is that we're not so sure we believe the story, which has huge financial benefits for the short sellers. 60 minutes doesn't own the truth, they just do stories, and the part of the story they intentionally left out of their story answered some of the questions asked, or raised some concern about their testing. Those two things alone are enough to pause for just a moment until we get to the bottom of things.

    Just because 60 minutes says it, doesn't make it true, just in the same way that just saying they are complaint doesn't make them compliant. The facts are the facts, but at this point, I don't trust either source. When you omit things from your reporting that raises issues, then you're no longer reporting, you're pushing an agenda. Once that happens, then I don't trust what you say at face value. Doesn't mean you aren't right, just means that you've proven to me that I can't take your word for it, and I'd have to look deeper at your information. Ask Lara Logan how it's going from 60 minutes? She didn't tell the truth in her reporting on 60 minutes and it finally cost her her job. So it's not like they have a track record of telling the truth all the time.

    If the guys raising the story and so concerned about it all, then, knowing they were short sellers, why wouldn't they clear all their short positions and take this head on from a standpoint of doing the right thing? My guess is the minute they are out of their short positions, the story will disappear. It's disgusting that anyone can get face time on 60 minutes that's bashing any company, that's currently holding a short position in the company.

    And let's be honest, it's not like 200,000,000 people watch 60 minutes. Probably 99% of the people know nothing about this story and will continue to shop there.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Pixley View Post
    We'll agree to disagree. Air polution like radiation does not respect arbitrary man made lines on maps. Formaldehyde, is a naturally occuring substance. But so it cyanide, arsenic, chlorine, flourine, asbestos, etc...

    It seems inconscionable that we would willingly expose our citizens to known unsafe conditions when we don't have to.
    Here is an article related to your opinion Shawn - http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/0...-firefighters/

    The firefighters seem to lobbying to remove flame retardants from building materials. OK, then what? Maybe they won't save your house if its not been pre-certified to be acceptable to them?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zona View Post
    I have never received an email from Lumber Liquidators until this morning. After I commented in this thread. Is this a coincidence, or what?
    Quick, start writing about supermodels.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    If the guys raising the story and so concerned about it all, then, knowing they were short sellers, why wouldn't they clear all their short positions and take this head on from a standpoint of doing the right thing? My guess is the minute they are out of their short positions, the story will disappear. It's disgusting that anyone can get face time on 60 minutes that's bashing any company, that's currently holding a short position in the company.

    And let's be honest, it's not like 200,000,000 people watch 60 minutes. Probably 99% of the people know nothing about this story and will continue to shop there.
    Economics is the driving force behind the actions of most people - there aren't very many Mother Teresa's in society. If there was not a financial incentive, this story would not have come to light. And I doubt if this story is going to disappear - we may not hear the news, but the suits from this will be going on for years.

    While many people may not have seen 60 minutes, the story was on the national news that I watch. It was either CBS or NBC. That's a much larger audience.

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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    While many people may not have seen 60 minutes, the story was on the national news that I watch. It was either CBS or NBC. That's a much larger audience.

    Mike
    Not by much Most people don't know who the Vice President is, so I'm guessing it isn't much of a water cooler discussion among the mass population. I haven't had anyone mention it to me, and if it wasn't on this forum, I wouldn't have known about it, and I'm not far from their home office. I have a customer that is in the same industrial complex so I ride by them to get to my customer.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    I don't think a single person in this thread has recommended that we don't try to make things safer for people. Not one.
    Scott, With all due deference of your opinion, we have people who have stated their opinion that California's environmental standards are unreasonably high which is what I was responding to. There is no evidence presented why they thought the standard was too high, but only that it was from California. My point was that in the interest of public health and public safety, why would we look to to standards that are less than the prevailing standards. If California had not issued tougher emission standards for cars do we really believe that Car makers and other states would have followed? Oviously this is rhetorical in the context of the LL discussion. Looking to a lower standard is like asking for a new car without airbags. Or maybe we should ask the polluters of the Cuyahoga river (which burned) whether they think the clean water act is too strict.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    What some of us are saying is that we're not so sure we believe the story, which has huge financial benefits for the short sellers. 60 minutes doesn't own the truth, they just do stories, and the part of the story they intentionally left out of their story answered some of the questions asked, or raised some concern about their testing. Those two things alone are enough to pause for just a moment until we get to the bottom of things.

    Just because 60 minutes says it, doesn't make it true, just in the same way that just saying they are complaint doesn't make them compliant. The facts are the facts, but at this point, I don't trust either source. When you omit things from your reporting that raises issues, then you're no longer reporting, you're pushing an agenda. Once that happens, then I don't trust what you say at face value. Doesn't mean you aren't right, just means that you've proven to me that I can't take your word for it, and I'd have to look deeper at your information. Ask Lara Logan how it's going from 60 minutes? She didn't tell the truth in her reporting on 60 minutes and it finally cost her her job. So it's not like they have a track record of telling the truth all the time.

    If the guys raising the story and so concerned about it all, then, knowing they were short sellers, why wouldn't they clear all their short positions and take this head on from a standpoint of doing the right thing? My guess is the minute they are out of their short positions, the story will disappear. It's disgusting that anyone can get face time on 60 minutes that's bashing any company, that's currently holding a short position in the company.

    And let's be honest, it's not like 200,000,000 people watch 60 minutes. Probably 99% of the people know nothing about this story and will continue to shop there.

    Second, I never made any comment as to whether or not I believed the story. I didn't see it and I don't care for 60 minutes sensationalism. I also am fundamentally opposed to short sellers as well. I fully recognize the conflicts in their motives.

    However, having traveled for business extensively in China and visiting numerous plants, I have no trouble believing that the story Could be true. I have seen falsification there. I have had conversations with governmental officials who will categorically state that IP / Patent and Trademark Protections are robust in China and in their next breath cheerily lead you to the knock-off mall. I have Bamboo flooring (strand) in my house that was purchased from LL. I have the ability (but not yet the means) to test and measure the IAC of the room where I have that flooring. If it passes, will that mean that the story is indisputably false? No. what it will mean is that my lot of flooring does not present a risk. I have a scientific and architectural background. I will reserve conclusions as to the accuracy of the claim until it is reputably verified (Preferably a Peer-reviewed level publication). I did this when I first read the claim about cold fusion. I will do this again.

    Please don't make claims about what I did or did not say that aren't true. So the bulk of your reply to me was about the short sellers and 60 Minutes sensationalism which I never commented upon until this post.
    Shawn

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  14. #74
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    There is nothing wrong with short selling, it is healthy to an open market.

    This issue is about shorting a stock and then planting negative stories about the company. If the stories are true, then even that is fine, but there needs to be some sort of punishment if the shorter is putting out lies.

    This also happens on the other side. Someone takes a large long position in a stock and then starts feeding lots of glowing reports about the company.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Pixley View Post
    Scott, With all due deference of your opinion, we have people who have stated their opinion that California's environmental standards are unreasonably high
    Can you point to one post that said that the CARB standards were unreasonably high? I also couldn't find one thread about anyone saying we should have more pollution, or allow more harmful chemicals in our homes.
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