Slab desk build

[Brian Holcombe]

Question for you guys:

The customer wants this 'desk' to be 36" tall. She wants large panel sides, and has an aversion to a lower stretcher or visible upper stretcher.

The legs are 36" tall x 19" wide x 1.75" thick.

If I use only upper stretchers on this top (recall, 60"x33"x2") then do you think I'll be ok with two 6"x1" upper stretchers?

It's a lot to ask of upper stretchers only when you are talking about a fairly heavy top.

1" wide is not giving yourself a lot of room to work either. You need 8/4" for the stretchers.

What are you planning for the joinery?

[Prashun Patel]

I am planning on loose tenoning the legs into the top. I'll just Domino those.

I'm planning on regular M&T-ing the stretchers into the legs. So, to be clear, I'm thinking of *2* 1" wide stretchers that would be spaced, say, 9" apart. Between the space, I'll add battens that will stabilize the stretchers, and will provide attachment points for the top.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yeah I saw that you had mentioned that, still why not 8/4?

i would use bridle joints, which will double the number of shoulders you have aligning these legs.

If you are really set on using m&t's I would make haunched through tenons where the lower half is made as a wedged through tenon.

Tenons in the top will help. Batten will do nothing to help the joinery.

[Prashun Patel]

Awesome thought! Thanks. Glad I asked. The bridle will be easier for me to cut also.

I see that battens would really only resist twisting, which isn't the risky force here, right? I mean, it's the racking that needs to be addressed, no?

I can switch to 8/4. I may just laminate 4/4. This may simplify the stretcher cuts, and will allow me nice, wide shoulders, correct?

[Brian Holcombe]

Both are important but they have separate purposes. Battens help the top to go through seasonal movement and remain flat, so they are basically required on a slab table. Now you have tenons in the legs which will help as well, but I would still use both.

The racking forces will be working on the joinery and they do have a very long lever to work against since we're talking about 34"~ legs.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, how about an arched lower stretcher? You are asking a lot of those two little stretchers at the top to resist a good blow if it comes from the end of the table. If an arched stretcher is out, I'd want to increase the width of the those upper ones to something more like 10" where they meet the legs and then narrow them in the middle. You could use some version of a cloud lift, or an arch.

Did I mention that I hate design on the fly?

John

[Prashun Patel]

She's opposed to a lower stretcher. This table will be in an alcove protected on 3 sides.

I'll just have to use upper stretchers and giant tenons.

[Brian Holcombe]

The low stretcher can be annoying if you are using a task chair, so I understand that, but why eliminate the front mid-level stretcher then? That cuts the leverage that the legs have against the top significantly and eliminates the need to overbuild the joinery to the top.

Giant stretchers under the top would be far more difficult to work around that a front mid-level stretcher, in my opinion.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, I meant a really big arch, like a bridge arch, going all the way up to the top stretchers. With that you wouldn't need much at all for the top stretchers, even a 1 x laid horizontal would be plenty if the arch met it at mid span. It would be almost completely open underneath.

But if the table is protected on 3 sides then I guess you won't need much racking resistance anyway.

John

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks.

I'll connect the base to the top with the floating tenons first. This will allow us to have a better, visual understanding of the implications. Shucks. Going on vaca for a week. Will have to pick up when I return.

[Prashun Patel]

These base panels are 36" tall. The stretcher is about 4" x 2". I bridled it into the base. I used a bandsaw to cut the mortise in the legs, and a table saw to rough out the dados in the stretcher. I cleaned up with a router plane and shoulder plane. I find them more efficient on large work because you can take the tool easier to the work.

The fit is snug. In the 3rd pic, the stretcher is proud of the top of the leg by a smidge.

The dimensions of this whole project feel big to me. But she wants it this way. It's a real delicate balance to steer the customer aesthetically without discouraging them. Ultimately, when they've made the choice, I find it a challenge to remain excited about it, which in turn causes them to doubt themselves. Once the decision's made, I think it's best to go with it and love it. So, I love it.

I want to add more support under the stretcher ends. I'm debating whether to half lap it or just continue the bridle. The half lap will be much simpler to execute (just glue blocks under the stretcher on either side of the leg). However, I'll be shaping the end of the stretcher, and near the bottom it will likely be shortgrained and narrow, so I don't think it'd add any strength to the joint unless it's supported as a bridle would. Think I'll go with bridle.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, it's starting to look a little ho-hum. Sorry, my opinion only. But I'm sure the finish will bring it to life. Anyway, have you considered a corbel for lack of the correct term on the inside of the legs? They could be attached to the stretcher with a M&T and to the legs with a sliding dovetail, stub tenon and rabbet, or just screwed or pegged. I might have suggested it for the outside of the legs but the stretcher doesn't appear to be long enough to do that. An arch on the inside would address the structural need and really give it some life, IMO, but I know that's off the table, so to say. Too bad.

Isn't 36"+ awfully tall for a desk?

One final comment. It's OK to follow what your customer wants, but there are limits when it comes to structural integrity. Customers often have no clue about what is structurally sound and what isn't, but they are not hesitant to call when something gets wobbly or fails.

OK, I have to ask. Where is your shop? It looks like a factory in the background.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I appreciate the comment, John. I too feel it's ho-hum. But it's what she wants. The table will fortunately be inside a nook, enclosed on 3 sides so there won't be opportunities to rack it too severely. They want it standing height. There's no accounting for taste.

If the table doesn't hold up to their use or their eyes, I can always make them a new one, probably from the same parts.

I really do appreciate your honestly on this. We don't get a lot of 'not loving it' posts around here. That's the only way to learn, IMHO.

[ron david]

if you are not happy with a project from the get go, then you shouldn't do it as it will always reflect back upon you. perhaps the project was beyond was beyond your skills. it is a thing of confidence and that should be implanted into your customer. you should know more about it than them. a beautiful piece of wood in itself cannot over come it's surroundings by it's self. your not happy with it and more than likely the people you made it for will not be happy with it in the end.
you have looked at Don's table that he just built. basically the same' a top and 2 end pieces. his has flow and should last for the ages without racking. Don has tears of experience and this what he does for a living. Don also built this table for himself and by that I mean it is his design and when someone comes along and purchases it, that will be another added plus for him and they will appreciate the design and sturdiness of it for years to come.
commisions are a tough thing for a lot of people and they cave in to their clients demands as all that they are looking at sometimes is the paycheck at the end. remember the worst thing that they can say to you is "no". you may have to sell them your expertise in order to consumate the the way it should be. then you needed have to worry about making them another
ron

[Prashun Patel]

"If you are not happy with a project from the get go, then you shouldn't do it as it will always reflect back upon you."

Thanks for the comment, Ron. I accept the criticism with humility. However, I will say that I am not UNhappy with the design. I believe it will work. I make 2 kinds of things: stuff for myself that I then may gift or sell to someone, and stuff that people ask for. I may not like the style perfectly, but I am happy with the work on the top, and I believe my base is (or will be) solid. Further, I love the process as much as I love the product. Making tables and seating - ANY kind - is extremely fun and satisfying to me. Last, the customer really loves this look, so I'll give her my best execution of it. All this is to say I'm proud of this effort.

Not that it matters, but I shouldn't have given the impression that I conceded to the customer on all points. The design we settled on was well debated, and I believe a good compromise that will make her happy. It's not completely my taste, but there are elements in here that I'm proud of, including the stability.

I agree that Don's table is a work of art. I wouldn't dare compare this to that.

I had a chance to add corbels to the stretcher at lunch. I still have some rounding over of the inside to do, but it's coming along slowly.