Shaper

[jack forsberg]

They only had two speeds as delivered, are you running a panel raiser at 10K? I've raised a lot of panels on a 27 and never hears one groan.

Jack, I know there is a formula to derive HP, and some motors are more efficient than others, but I see some chiwan tools calling themselves 3HP and drawing 12A 220V single phase.....??? Do they have a secret formula?

746 watts per hp is what i think your talking about but that's engineer paper figures, in real life you have to account for power factor(its stamped on the motor tag) to rate the efficacy and number of polls in the motor . Slow speed motors of the same hP draw more amps than 2 pool 3600 rpm motor by design. so the 746 watt draw is very general in term of hp and motor design has a fair bit to play in the over all machine draw. it not correct to say a motor has more hp or less based on this single metric.

the speeds of the 27 are in line with a 3/4" spindle moulder builds. are you feeding to fast?

[David Kumm]

Jack, that bearing is even bigger than Martin uses. Same as my Whitney. My concern with the smaller shaper isn't so much the motor, but the structure of the quill assembly. I don't know the machine, but in the shaper world it is all about the quill and as jack says, bearings. The 6311 that Jack showed were considered medium duty before machines started to get lighter. 6200 series were labeled light duty. Now you are lucky to find even 6200 series in a machine. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Jack, that bearing is even bigger than Martin uses. Same as my Whitney. My concern with the smaller shaper isn't so much the motor, but the structure of the quill assembly. I don't know the machine, but in the shaper world it is all about the quill and as jack says, bearings. The 6311 that Jack showed were considered medium duty before machines started to get lighter. 6200 series were labeled light duty. Now you are lucky to find even 6200 series in a machine. Dave

Dave the quill is sold from what i can see on the 27? the bearings have a 25mm bore so its smaller than 1 1/4". Could any with the 26 and 27 tells us what are the changes. they sure have made machine light Dave.


here is the medium duty quill in my Robinson with that bearing.



this one comes with a top support bearing arm.



High_Point,_North_Carolina_-_Upholstering._Tomlinson_Chair_Manufacturing_Co._Shaper_-_draw_front.jpg

[Paul Incognito]

John,
I have that exact machine with a 5 horse motor. If yours has a 3/4" spindle, I probably wouldn't bother switching out the motor.
For what it's worth, mine has a 1" spindle, and for panel raising, I would like a 1-1/4".
Hope this helps,
Paul

[Rick Thompson34]

My guess is that you won't be able to make the motor swap without at least modifying the mount and the pulley. The frame size on my Ekstrom Carlson 162 is a non-standard one and is specially balanced for the application. Not sure of the pulley setup on the Beach, but on the EC it's a pretty beefy pulley and would likely put some stress on a motor not designed for the task. Your results may vary, but that's my gut reaction based on knowledge of similar machines. If the current motor works fine, run it and take multiple passes if needed. If you need to do everything in one pass, hold out for a larger machine.

Rick

[Joe Calhoon]

the 27 is powermatics heavy duty can be had with a larger spindle still got 6200 bearing in it. when i say big bearing and spindle i am taking ABEC 7 oil lube like this one in my hand. I do believe that Moak did make a model with this type bearing but i am sure its larger than that one. I think the older Martin use this bearing as well but Dave or Joe would know. for induction motors HP is HP and its got a lot to do with motor power factor rating and the number of polls (rpm) to compare amp draw. 3 phase motors of the same hp and voltage draw less amp than there single phase capacitor start motors. think of them as the topping pete. Its the brush type motors (routers)that there overrating the HP on .

These are the two bearings from my T90. The Martin shaper bearings are the same. This is 15 year old vintage, not sure if older is the same.
Joe
Martin bearings.jpg

[Paul Incognito]

My guess is that you won't be able to make the motor swap without at least modifying the mount and the pulley. The frame size on my Ekstrom Carlson 162 is a non-standard one and is specially balanced for the application. Not sure of the pulley setup on the Beach, but on the EC it's a pretty beefy pulley and would likely put some stress on a motor not designed for the task. Your results may vary, but that's my gut reaction based on knowledge of similar machines. If the current motor works fine, run it and take multiple passes if needed. If you need to do everything in one pass, hold out for a larger machine.

Rick

That's pretty much how I see it as well.
If John is interested, I can take some pics of the motor and pulley on mine. The one he's looking at should be similar.
PI

[Jeff Duncan]

The Powermatic 26/27 were fine machines for light duty shaping. I personally think the 5 hp motor and 1-1/4" spindle on these machines was due to marketing and optimism as the machine isn't really robust enough to handle them fully.

This is a Powermatic bearing….the one sitting inside the Martin bearing that is!

You can see one of these can handle the demands made on a 1-1/4" spindle and the other….not quite so much. I'm one of the guys who was overly optimistic with his 27 as Jack eluded to. I used to run a 4" corrugated head on occasion. Bearings lasted just over a year. All this to say that just swapping in a bigger spindle and/or motor does not make the machine more capable. All depends on what you have for bearings and quill assembly.

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

The Powermatic 26/27 were fine machines for light duty shaping. I personally think the 5 hp motor and 1-1/4" spindle on these machines was due to marketing and optimism as the machine isn't really robust enough to handle them fully.

This is a Powermatic bearing….the one sitting inside the Martin bearing that is!

You can see one of these can handle the demands made on a 1-1/4" spindle and the other….not quite so much. I'm one of the guys who was overly optimistic with his 27 as Jack eluded to. I used to run a 4" corrugated head on occasion. Bearings lasted just over a year. All this to say that just swapping in a bigger spindle and/or motor does not make the machine more capable. All depends on what you have for bearings and quill assembly.

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff that's a fine pic LOL. Its fair to say that the 6200 series do run faster with a lot more ease in lucubration. And at only $8 each there not costly to change. The ABEC 7 6212 bearings on the other hand can have some elaborate lubing systems and can cost some where between $300 to $700 a piece depending on the cage material and make. they also allow the top piece to be removed though and can last 50 years or longer if maintained under industrial conditions.

[David Kumm]

Those pictures are a great example of the changes made in today's machines. Not just the bearing size, but the type as well. As Jack said, Those big bearings needed to be precision, open and either brass or phenolic caged to handle the rpm and stress and not fail quickly. The machines were more expensive to produce, not only due to the bulk and heft, but because the lube systems needed to be engineered for the open bearings. Oil pumps and recirculating systems, or ways to sling the grease in and out of the bearing complicated life. The newer large shapers have decreased bearing size, even going to 6000 series to handle the rpm and still allow for a standard precision sealed bearing so there is no need for a lubrication system. The newer machines are way more user friendly, have lots of nice features, but you need to make sure the bearings are easy to get to because they will need replacing. Not so relevant when buying new for light use, but a big deal if you throw a 25 lb cutter on the machine.

Jeff had a great old Martin T21 that he sold for way less than the machine was worth (IMO) and less than a new PM 27 would go for. You can see the comparison. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

746 watts per hp is what i think your talking about but that's engineer paper figures, in real life you have to account for power factor(its stamped on the motor tag) to rate the efficacy and number of polls in the motor . Slow speed motors of the same hP draw more amps than 2 pool 3600 rpm motor by design. so the 746 watt draw is very general in term of hp and motor design has a fair bit to play in the over all machine draw. it not correct to say a motor has more hp or less based on this single metric.

the speeds of the 27 are in line with a 3/4" spindle moulder builds. are you feeding to fast?

Thats what I'm talking about Jack. There is a theoretical conversion factor, watts per HP, dictates the "maximum potential HP" output from a given input, then you deduct for friction, motor efficiency, etc. So at 220V the best you can hope for is roughly 5A makes 1HP....so your talking best case scenario you feed a motor 15A, you get 3HP....so how do some of these Chinese induction motors claim to produce 3 Hp but only draw 12A? Have they beat the laws of physics...do their engineers study harder than ours? Pretty sure they are just lying is my point, you can't do better than the theoretical maximum, you can only do worse, so knowing how many amps are going in does not alone tell you how many HP are coming out, agreed, but it does suggest the best you could hope for, and if a company claims they are doing better than that......I'm calling bull. And I could link to at least several manufacturers that claim their shapers are 3HP units....then you read the posted manual and it says they draw 12A. Sounds like they just call their 2HP shaper a 3HP shaper....guy goes to raise panels, machine wont do it easily, figures he needs to step up to a 5HP machine....which is probably only really a 3HP machine.....and so on. I like the Italian motors on my shapers because they don't mention HP at all, they just rate them by kilowatts. I was asked by my phase convertor manufacturer not only what kind of machine I was starting, but country of origin, when I told him Italy he told me to go over a size on the phase conversion as the Italian motors are over wound and a bit harder to start because of it, and that wasn't a bad thing, just a factor to be considered.

I don't have a chart in front of me, but I'm thinking 7K rpm's suggests around a 3 1/2"-5" 3 wing cutter, and I've used the PM 27 to to spin those plenty. Put in a 6" panel raiser, its moving a bit fast, put in a 4" molding head with 3/4" projection, its moving a bit fast. Spinning a 6" panel raiser at 10K is verging on cuckoo based on diameter and I doubt many are rated for that speed. My next consideration when choosing a speed or a machine is what is the total cut...height of cut, depth of cut. I'll raise 1" cabinet doors with 5/8" sticking all day long on a PM 27. Start making 2 1/4" entry doors with a 5/8" depth of cut, doesn't matter what the speed is, the machine can't handle it single pass long term, you can hear it struggling. DAMHIK. My approach is not technical based on charts but results based, machine should "sound" right, no chatter, shavings are chips not chunks or dust (too fast feed or too slow), no burning. You know what I'm saying, you listen to the machine, you feel its right.
I spent yesterday pushing 2 1/4" stiles through a SCMI T130, machine barely seemed to know it was working. The PM27 didn't have that 6K speed or 5K speed because it really wasn't built to push anything that needs to go that slow, the hole in the table and the speed range tells the whole story. The 1 1/4" bore gets you the larger diameter (4" versus 2 7/8" for 2/4" bore) which gets you the gentler exit angle, way better cuts, and the machine will do it within its total cut ability, but some users and shop owners seem to think they have more machine there then it really is. I wish they built them all like your robinson!

[David Kumm]

Peter, Italian motors are tightly wound because the machine manufacturers spec a small frame motor but still want the higher kw. I've got a shaper rated at 10 hp with a 90L frame and another rated at 9 hp with a 112 ( 132 would be more normal ). By packing the smaller frame, the guts of the machine can be lightened. Especially true with shapers as the motor usually rides up and down with the quill. Downside is the motors run hotter and bearings fail sooner. i've got lots of machines and have rewound more Italian motors than old US iron but I've got a good motor guy and at least I can lift a 112 to get fixed. I've got a T130 and it is a total pleasure to use but the build is nothing like the Martin T21 and the bearings ( 6011 ) are a total PITA to change. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Pete the motor amp thing is what is confusing i think to some and why Watts/KW are used to state draw/HP.Watt consumption is not voltage related where as amps to hp would have to name voltage to determine hp. Then there is single phase and 3 phase motors with the single phase motor drawing 1.732 times that of 3 phase motors per HP.

to illustrate these are the amp draws of 1 hp for single and 3 phase motors


3 phase motor
575 volts = 1 amps
480 volts = 1.27 amps
230 volts = 2.5 amps

single phase motor
230 volts 5 amps
115 volts 10 amps

One other thing to note is that the EU KW motor rating is input power where as HP rating is full load amps and out put rating.
so in the end hp rating in induction motors is not as good a measure of power and why the EU uses KW.

As to the 27 i think that there are lesser moulders out there and that one will do most everything you give it in today's terms. Today most used balanced heads that just drop on. I run my own knifes in the shop that may be out of balance a bit with some of the tooling old school that would not do well on the mid range spindle moulders with smaller bearings. the tenon heads are one. Not many runn this gear any more i would say so not to worry if the machine is up to it. The big window disks are well balanced and the tolling lighter too but even these machine have 50mm spindles. I like the old kit because it gives me my shop the capability to run the heaver heads that i get for nothing.

[Joe Calhoon]

Shapers are my favorite woodworking machines and we push them to the limits in our shop. I have experienced a lot of shapers in 40 years of woodworking, from an old iron Fay& Egan, Powermatic’s and Deltas, medium and heavy Italian, new Felder and late model German iron. I will say without a doubt that the new top end shapers and tooling are better in every respect than any vintage iron. The downside is the costs for most shops.
I advise a lot of people on this and IMHO depending on budget and product there are several ways to go.
I would not advise trying to beef up HP on a light duty machine. As mentioned the guts are the important part.

Old US and UK iron – these are solid machines with the biggest failing in the fence systems. They are lacking in many things including up to date safety devices and spindle speeds. I see these as good only for dedicated setups in shops. Some enjoy the time consuming restoration of these and that is fine but does not make sense for the shop in business or the hobby shops trying to maximize time for building projects. In the end with a lot of time spent on this you still have a rotary dial phone. I like a lot of old iron like band saws, drill presses, non sliding table saws and mortisers but not shapers.

Light duty Powermatic and Delta type- these work for most cabinet and furniture type work. Not great machines for versatility. I see them used in pro shops as dedicated cope and stick machines.

For pro shops or serious home shops on a budget it is hard to beat early 70s or so and up German and Italian shapers. These have decent fences and can be adapted to updated safety devices. They will run corrugated heads and also handle modern heads for architectural and heavy door work. We ran a lot of heavy Italian and never had problems with the motors as Dave mentions. A lot of these have sealed bearings and would agree that is a problem on shapers.

Another good option especially for the serious home shop or small pro shop are new shapers from Felder and Minimax. These are user friendly, can handle the larger diameter euro type cutters and have good safety devices along with other modern features. And there are some heavier new Italian and Felder machines that are reasonable in price also.

It’s not true that new top end shapers do not have good bearings. Just look at not only Martin but also Utis and Hofmann. They have very elaborate lube systems. Not sure where SCM and the new Panhans are in that respect. SCM has the direct drive router motor on the top end Invincible shaper that looks pretty interesting.
For the high price tag on these machines the buyer gets super accurate and repeatable fences, repeatable and fast feed systems, large heavy duty tenoning tables, quick change shafts of all types to compliment CNC routers and moulders, programmable settings, tilting forward and back and even 90 on the Hofmann, the ability to run any type head and much more.
I would guess there are only 50 or so shapers of this type sold in North America each year if even that many. Some to larger millwork and door shops, some to small established pro shops and surprisingly some to home shops of well to do hobbyist’s.

My opinion about shapers for what its worth.

Joe

[David Kumm]

Agree with everything you said, Joe. Didn't mean to imply that the top end was less than old. The T130 I speak of is considered commercial but SCMI makes two levels above that model. Those are pretty rare in this forum, as are Martin and Panhans. Hofmann is pretty much nonexistant here in US. The price point for a mid range Felder or MM is about 8-10K now and your machines must be close to double that. For those looking at shapers in the 3-7K range, the older high end used are a real bargain. People should not be afraid of Martin, SCMI, Casolin, Casadei, etc in that price range. The build allows them to be used fairly hard and still have as much or more life than new lesser machines. I'm an old iron guy but for shapers, I prefer the Euro for your reasons. Better fence, reversing, even sliding tables with good crosscut fences if you need them. A 4-5K T130 or 4-7K Martin still trump anything new for even close to those prices. Dave