Veritas Bevel Up Smoother Or Low Angle Smooth Plane?

[Prashun Patel]

Derek-
If you're fairly new to planes, I'd really try to get to an event or generous Creeker's shop to test out a couple different styles.

The right smoother for you is a matter of personal taste, so know there is not a wrong choice here, and know that either can likely be resold at fairly close to new price value if you keep it in good shape.

That being said, if you ever plan to get a Low Angle Jack plane from Veritas, I'd get the BU smoother. The reason is that the blade sharing between the two comes in handy. Also, the sides of that Jack are smooth, so you can use it for shooting. The Jack is light enough that it's not fatiguing and heavy enough and wider than the LA smoother so I find it's a more appropriate choice for most shooting tasks. Try to foresee whether you'll ever purchase the LA jack. All you will read about this being wonderful is true. This may inform your current smoother purchase.

The BU smoother tends to be a more popular plane if that tells you anything. But then again, Cold Play tends to be a popular band so there's no accounting for popular taste...

As an aside, it is confusing that the names of the planes don't coincide with their blade sharing-ability. To be clear, these confusingly named planes share the same blade: Low Angle Jack, Bevel Up Smoother, Bevel Up Jointer.

The Low Angle Smoother and the small Bevel Up Smoother have unique blades.

Veritas seems to use the "Bevel Up/ Low Angle" distinction to refer to plane cheeks. The "Bevel Up" planes (smoother, small smoother, jointer) doesn't have smooth sides. "Low Angle" planes (jack, smoother, block) do.

[Derek Cohen]

Here's a slightly different take on things.

BU planes offer a less complicated path to high performance planing. While I believe that you can extract a little more from a BD+Chipbreaker, there is a steeper learning curve to setting one up, and this is not for everyone. At the end of the day, the top end of a BU plane will rarely - if ever - be tested by most woodworkers.

If you want to have the best BU smoother going (outside of custom planemakers, such as Holtey and Marcou), the Vertitas BU Smoother stands out. It is better than the LA Smoother. In theory, cutting angle is cutting angle, but in reality the extra mass along with a lower centre of effort (from the mass - the extra width is akin to the wider track of a sport car) of the BUS makes for more less effort in pushing the plane at high cutting angles.

I would not use the argument that it has the same blade as the LA Jack and BU Jointer. I think that is irrelevant - choose a smoother as a smoother and not because of the blade. The fact is that the blade set up for the BUS (high bevel angle and fine camber) is not going to meet the needs of the other planes.

Get blades for it with the 25 degree bevels and learn to hone a secondary bevel with a honing guide that enables you to add a camber while honing the secondary. When you are starting out this is going to sound very complicated. It will become straightforward in due course.

Why not get the LA Smoother? I have nothing against the LA Smoother. I think it is a fine plane, exceptionally capable and more flexible. However, in my hands it wold only get used as a smoother: it would require a second blade to use for shooting. It is a little light for shooting (although it does work in this capacity) and, as I mentioned, I prefer planes dedicated to a purpose. It is useful when you are starting out to have a multipurpose plane, but when you've been doing it a while, it becomes cumbersome. Decide whether you want an all-rounder or a dedicated plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek (the other one)

[Brian Holcombe]

If you're not comfortable grinding blades to different angles,
stick with the Bailey design with a chip breaker.

They're versatile, less expensive and more flexible.

You can get most of your planing done with a well set up #4.

The LV #4 is VERY good, as an all around plane.

If you are comfortable getting a blade genuinely sharp,
and can get more than one cutting angle ground,
the LN #62 is an amazing plane.

It's good for shooting edges and ends, too.

In brief - if you're just starting out, a #4.
If you're a little further down the road
and have a #4 already - add a LN 62.

+1

My set of planes is #4 LN bevel down, Bevel up jack with a heavily cambered blade and a shooting blade, and a #7 LN bevel down jointer.....plus a few specialty planes.

I can dimension by hand without issue, flatten panels and boards without issue. Yes, there is a learning curve....there is a learning curve to both.

My complaint with bevel up, if I grind a steeper angle I'm changing the pitch. That's good and bad, if I simply want a steeper grind for durability I'm still increasing the pitch. I find if I am not at 32 degrees I do not get much life between sharpenings from my blades (01 and A2) and that brings me to 44 degrees...not exactly low angle.

[Derek Cohen]

My complaint with bevel up, if I grind a steeper angle I'm changing the pitch. That's good and bad, if I simply want a steeper grind for durability I'm still increasing the pitch. I find if I am not at 32 degrees I do not get much life between sharpenings from my blades (01 and A2) and that brings me to 44 degrees...not exactly low angle.

Brian, you've lost me there (not hard to do ).

Unless I am missing something one would want a steeper pitch in a smoother for more complex wood. I've not had an issue with durability from 50 degree bevels (62 degree included angle) in A2 or PMV-11, and this is in hard, abrasive woods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Isn't this topic re covered very frequently?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Isn't this topic re covered very frequently?

Yabut, we change our opinions quite often!

[Derek Cohen]

Isn't this topic re covered very frequently?

From time-to-time, George. Unfortunately most woodworkers are prone to sniff too much hide glue, which it affects the frontal lobes and short term .... what were we discussing .... ?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian maybury]

That's Jeffrey well and truly confused by us all - and for sure my experience is limited, and restricted to what i have.

There's clearly (to use a politically incorrect phrase) more than one way to skin a horse. To try and summarise the present consensus, but others come in if i get it wrong:

1. Bevel up or down will do the job, whether approached by buying a dedicated smoother - or multi task plane.
2. There's a long running debate about whether a finely set up BU or BD has the ultimate smoothing capability at high angles on difficult woods, and it's not going to be bottomed here. The ultimate reality may be that any distinction depends on the situation specifics, but both do pretty much everything very well…
3. Quite a lot depends on your budget and on how you propose to handle the issue of any wider planing needs (beyond smoothing - stuff like jointing edges, getting boards flat enough for smoothing, shooting joints, local cross and with grain trimming etc), and the associated issue of plane irons of differing cambers/corners and cutting angles - by using dedicated planes, or by switching irons in and out.
4. The former is clearly most convenient, and permits keeping planes set up for particular jobs - but is more expensive.
5. The heavier LV BU smoother gets several votes for its great feel, weight and effectiveness as a smoother (but it can't shoot by virtue of not having flat sides), but theoretically and with various advantages and disadvantages depending on the task the low angle jack, smoother or even for very small work) LV block can with appropriate set up all smooth - and handle other jobs. As can a variety of bevel down planes, with the LN no. 4 getting mention as another all rounder.
6. Consider in BU buying 25 deg irons, and applying micro bevels at the required angles for steeper cutting angles - steeper grinds can be awkward to camber etc.

While it may well feed back into the above decision process, it might be best not get into issues of what's best for other tasks here or we could still be going in a month's time...

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, you've lost me there (not hard to do ).

Unless I am missing something one would want a steeper pitch in a smoother for more complex wood. I've not had an issue with durability from 50 degree bevels (62 degree included angle) in A2 or PMV-11, and this is in hard, abrasive woods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I dont have a durability issue, per say, but I like a bit of time between resharpening and 32 degrees does that for me. I can make the 0-1 blade 25 degrees but then I'm at the sharpening stone more often than I prefer.

You may want a steeper pitch for difficult woods, but you may also want a shallow pitch for operations such as shooting. 45~ works, but i'd rather have 37~.

It's not a deal breaker, but something to consider.

I'm including the bed angle when I say 37 to 45.

[Jeffrey Martel]

That's Jeffrey well and truly confused by us all - and for sure my experience is limited, and restricted to what i have.

I think you're confusing me with the original poster. No confusion here.

I can see where additional mass would help make smoothing easier, but in terms of final results I doubt there would be an appreciable difference between the two. In smoothing operation, the only difference is the extra mass and wider sole. Given that the LAS can still be used in shooting, for me it was a lot more versatile than the Bevel Up. I don't care about blade swapping between planes, especially when you consider that one normally sharpens a smoothing blade different from a jointer or a jack blade.

[john zulu]

+1 to Derek comments on LV BUS.
I always tried to use the BD for hard woods. But it was not that easy as the centre of gravity was kind of tippy. The lower centre of gravity for LV BUS helped a lot for easier planing on hard wood.

If you have a jack plane then go with the LV BUS as it is much more beneficial for a dedicated smoother.

[george wilson]

In case you missed the very lengthy discussion on how to set the chip breaker to smoothly plane difficult wood,you cannot use a chip breaker on a BU plane,of course. So,the design is limited in that regard.

[Frank Martin]

In case you missed the very lengthy discussion on how to set the chip breaker to smoothly plane difficult wood,you cannot use a chip breaker on a BU plane,of course. So,the design is limited in that regard.

This is definitely true. However, many users may never hit that limit and the BU is a lot easier to setup with a shorther learning curve. After a brief unsuccessful experience with old Stanleys I switched to new BU Veritas planes and never regretted. Given all the discussion about the merits of the bevel down planes and the chipbreaker, I purchased one of the new Veritas premium planes. I really like it so far, but can't tell it works better than the BU equivalents for what I do.

[Tony Zaffuto]

From time-to-time, George. Unfortunately most woodworkers are prone to sniff too much hide glue, which it affects the frontal lobes and short term .... what were we discussing .... ?

Regards from Perth

Derek

My problem is my beagle's taste for hide glue! The sniffer can detect the glue pot from a mile away and then whatever she can get her jaws around is dragged out of the shop to be chewed upon.

[Pat Barry]

This is definitely true. However, many users may never hit that limit and the BU is a lot easier to setup with a shorther learning curve. After a brief unsuccessful experience with old Stanleys I switched to new BU Veritas planes and never regretted. Given all the discussion about the merits of the bevel down planes and the chipbreaker, I purchased one of the new Veritas premium planes. I really like it so far, but can't tell it works better than the BU equivalents for what I do.

I don't really think the learning curve or the setup is really any easier with the BU vs the BD, at least for me they can both be fussy and highly dependent on the wood, the grain direction, the depth of cut, the sharpness of the edge, etc, etc.. I also don't think that either of these is theoretically any better than the other when it comes to getting the job done - more a matter of individual preference and trust in the tool. I do think, speaking from my experience only, that the new LV BUS I have is a tool that I am really gaining an appreciation for. Maybe its the PMV11 blade, maybe its the overall tightness of the tool. I still use my #4 BD with its old blade quite a lot and I know it is easier to sharpen.