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Thread: European Table saws

  1. #1
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    European Table saws

    Hello fellow WW
    I have been thinking about table saws recently and wanted to ask a few questions about the european table saws. Most of you are aware that I have a big monster of an american saw that is somewhat uncomfortable to use due to its size. This has gotten me thinking about replacing it in the future. My choices are either an american saw ( oliver 88, northfield #4, moak monotrol, or tannewitz u or j ) or a european saw. I know that many of you folks have felders and minimax saws, as well as format4 and maybe a martin or altendorf. So this question is for those who moved from a decent american saw to a european one. Please know in advance that I am not "begging the question" on the saw selection. I know that I can count on honest and thoughful answers from you all. BTW as you will see from the questions, I build almost exclusively 18th century american reproductions and use almost no sheet stock. thanks in advance


    I have done a search on SMC and still did not come up with answers to my questions. So here goes:

    1. It seems that almost all european saws are now only sliders with big outriggers for sheet stock. What is the advantage of that if I never process any sheet goods. My table saw is mainly used for ripping and much less for cross cutting. For cross cutting dimensional lumber I can use the miter slot on the TS or my pretty accurate RAS or CMS. I really don't want to give up the shop space associated with altendorf or martin sliders. But I am asking the question so my mind is open.

    2. What else do european TS offer that american ones do not? Many seem to offer scoring attachments, but then again I see that only for sheet stock and not dimensional lumber. The american saws that I either have or are considering all have real riving knives as do the european saws, so that is not a reason. But there may be many other advantages that I am not aware of.

    3. Is it that european saws are more comfortable to use than american ones?

    4. Ok what ever else you guys or gals can come up with please send it my way

    kind regards
    lou

  2. #2
    I believe in Europe,they mostly use sheet goods so they need an easier, more precise way of handling those. Since they would sell mostly to industry the saws are geared mostly for the industrial market. Space is at a premium as well, most people live in the equivilant of a condo, so there are not a lot hobbiest doing WW, and of those they would be using smaller tools. This is where the combo machines come into play. Although they have a small foot print, they pack a lot into a small space.

    Even if you are only using lumber an outfeed table is still helpful just to support the lumber after you rip. Based on your needs, and the fact you do not use sheet goods, I think that you could get away with a TS with a strong motor for ripping thick stock and a shorter fence. Toss in an outfeed table so you can rip longer wood and you would be set. If you are looking at machines that have riving knives then you are stuck with high end machines. Martin, Altendorf, Mini Max, Laguna, but then you will have to deal with the outrigger they have. They may make one that does not have the outrigger, but I not too familiar with all that is out there.

    Another machine to look at would be a SawStop. Blade stopping ablility aside, it has a number of other things built in like a narrow blade cover, can accept dado blades (some Euro machines do not accept them) and a riving knife. Sort of a hybrid of the Euro and American style machines. Not trying to start/hijack another thread about the merits of the company.
    I can pay retail anywhere, so how's your service?
    Grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory one project at a time
    Maker of precision cut firewood


  3. #3
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    One big advantage of the european sliders is being able to place the stock on the sliding table and move it past the blade.the sliding table is right next to the blade.

    You can use the saw to edge joint your solid stock then rip it to width and glue up right off the saw. No problem with the chipout on the corners you sometimes get with a jointer.

    For odd angles it's easy to clamp a fence to the slider using either a protractor or a t-bevel to set the angle. Hold your stock against the fence and cut away.

    I'm not sure about Altendorf and Martin since they are pretty much industrial machines but I know that Felder makes shorter sliders, 4-5feet. So if space is a consideration and you said you don't do much panel work they might work well for you.

    I have an Altendorf and would hate to lose it. It would be a big learning curve and lots of jig making to go to an American style saw.
    Steve Jenkins, McKinney, TX. 469 742-9694
    Always use the word "impossible" with extreme caution

  4. #4
    If your not using sheet stock go with the Oliver, Northfield or the Tanny. Great saws that will out last you and I. Nothing beats a couple thousand pounds of American iron with a 5hp or 7.5hp motor. Couple other notable saws would be the Rockwell 12/14 or the Yates G89.

    Watch the auction sites. You could probably find a Northfield or Tanny cheap. Oliver's generally go for more because of the name. Don't rush. Unfortuantly with all the furniture factories going out of business your bound to find some really good deals. personally I'd find a Northfield with a sliding table.

    Though this is the one I'm holding out for:
    http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1593

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by lou sansone
    1. It seems that almost all european saws are now only sliders with big outriggers for sheet stock. What is the advantage of that if I never process any sheet goods. My table saw is mainly used for ripping and much less for cross cutting. For cross cutting dimensional lumber I can use the miter slot on the TS or my pretty accurate RAS or CMS. I really don't want to give up the shop space associated with altendorf or martin sliders. But I am asking the question so my mind is open.
    Most of the large commercial type saws are as you suggest. Many will have the "outrigger" part of the sliding table as a removable item. This leaves you with a sliding table which is about 8-10" wide and whose edge runs right alongside the blade. I have a somewhat smaller version of a saw configured exactly like this. I use it all the time to edge joint solid timber. It has the big advantage that it is quick and that I can set the amount taken off to be as wide as I want. If I need to lose an inch of the edge to lose a blemish, I can and still end up with a glue edge in a single pass. No ide if this is uefull to you but I know that it is to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by lou sansone
    2. What else do european TS offer that american ones do not? Many seem to offer scoring attachments, but then again I see that only for sheet stock and not dimensional lumber. The american saws that I either have or are considering all have real riving knives as do the european saws, so that is not a reason. But there may be many other advantages that I am not aware of.
    We live under a more regulated system and most of the differences are gonna fall to safety at some level. Riving knife is one. The sliding table itself is an important safety consideration. All modern european saws, as supplied in Europe, are fitted with motor braking which brings the blade to rest within 10 seconds of switching off (DC Motor braking). Dust collection is probably slightly better having been designed in from the beginning rather than engineered in later. Bear in mind that some of the safety stuff may be a disadvantage to your methods of working. Dado blades have already been quoted - no current European supplied saw will take a dado blade.
    Quote Originally Posted by lou sansone
    3. Is it that european saws are more comfortable to use than american ones?
    That depends what you are used to. My TS motor went last year and I had to use a machine with no sliding table for a week or two while I waited for a part. Scared the bejeebers out of me so that ranks as uncomfortable in my book.

    I hope that this helps a little Lou.

  6. #6
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    I don't have any experience with any of these saws - so I can't comment.

    I can add that there was a gentleman that posted a partially dis-assembled Northfield #4 a while back. That sounds like the kind of thing Lou would take on.

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22307

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Barley
    Dado blades have already been quoted - no current European supplied saw will take a dado blade.
    Both MiniMax and Felder offer dado options on some machines; MiniMax by using a "normal" American style dado setup (you have a 5/8" arbor and they have offset the slider to accomodate it on models supporting the same) and Felder with their own special dado cutter setup. These are for the US market, however, and would not normally be seen in the EU.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker
    Both MiniMax and Felder offer dado options on some machines; MiniMax by using a "normal" American style dado setup (you have a 5/8" arbor and they have offset the slider to accomodate it on models supporting the same) and Felder with their own special dado cutter setup. These are for the US market, however, and would not normally be seen in the EU.
    Jim,

    The Felder can take a regular dado set like the Forrest Dado King, you just need to have the blades and chippers drilled to the arbor and pin pattern.

    Rob

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker
    Both MiniMax and Felder offer dado options on some machines; MiniMax by using a "normal" American style dado setup (you have a 5/8" arbor and they have offset the slider to accomodate it on models supporting the same) and Felder with their own special dado cutter setup. These are for the US market, however, and would not normally be seen in the EU.
    I am sure that you are right Jim - I should have been clearer that this applied to European saws supplied in Europe. I believe that one of the reasons for the prohibition is that a large dado set is incompatible with the DC motor braking - introducing the potential for the blade to spin off under the effects of its own momentum and the retardation of the spindle. Maybe this feature has been modified to accomodate the dado feature.

  10. #10

    Arrow

    I know that sliders have a reputation, especially amongst people that have not used them, as being primarily for sheet goods. However, while they are great for cutting up plywood, and many people purchase a slider primarily for sheet goods, sliders also offer a number of fundamental advantages for solid wood processing.

    I have an MM CU300S, which I use for recreational woodworking (primarily furniture and house projects). I do almost no sheet goods processing other than for jigs and shop fixtures. While I use the outrigger quite a bit, I also use the slider regularly without the outrigger attached. My slider is on the short side (5 1/2 feet).

    I sincerely hope that I never have to go back to a saw without a slider.
    Frankly, I no longer feel safe actually pushing the wood past the blade.

    Also, the slider is much more accurate, faster to set up, and safer for almost every cut that I do.

    My recent projects using the slider include:

    Cutting notches and tenons in large timbers (8 ft long 6x6's)
    Cutting angled tenons in IPE
    Squaring panels and glue-ups
    Cutting beveled post caps
    Raising large panels
    ripping/edge jointing solid stock
    Cutting slots for jointing boxes and cabinets
    Angled cross cuts and miter cuts

    Some of these I would not attempt on a regular saw (notching large timbers). Some are much easier on the slider (squaring panels and glue-ups, raising panels, beveling post caps, anything using any sort of jig). I would say that in all of these applications, the slider was easier to set up, and resulted in a more accurate result than I would have been able to achieve on a standard American cabinet saw.

    Caveat -- I'm no pro. I went from a contractor saw to the slider, hence never had regular access to a high quality non-slider type of saw. I know of at least a couple long term professionals that have gone back to american style saws because they decided they did not like working with the slider.

    Mike

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Russell
    The Felder can take a regular dado set like the Forrest Dado King, you just need to have the blades and chippers drilled to the arbor and pin pattern.
    Yes, I knew that, but forgot to mention it while stating the info about the Felder-specific solution. Sorry!!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
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    keep the comments comming. they are giving me lots to think about.

    One question that I have is that I use an outfeed table / work bench for my current non slider. what do you guys do who have sliders. do you simply move the outfeed table over in line with the rest of the table saw table ?

    thanks lou

  13. #13
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    Hi Lou, I've been using a European slider since 1998. First was a Felder combo saw/shaper and now it's a Felder Kappa 40 saw. I went from a unisaw to the slider.
    While I'm a big proponent of format type sliders (sliding table is right next to the blade), there is a learning curve in going from a cabinet saw to a slider.
    As far as the sliders only having large heavy outriggers and 8 to even 16' sliding tables, you can get them with much shorter tables-4,5,6,7ft. I know that Martin, Felder, and Altendorf have saws with these shorter tables, and you can get them without the outrigger. So if the majority of your work is in hardwoods then there would be no need for the long table and outrigger. But you still would be able to take advantage of having a sliding table saw.
    With a slider you'll find most of your cutting is done on the left side. Depending on the length of the table you can even straight line rip.
    I think the Eurosliders have better dust collection, more safety features and are very ergonomically designed.
    My recommendation is to go to a shop that has a slider and try it out. Make the various cuts you make now on your cabinet saw and see what feels better to you. You may just like the standard cabinet saw.
    If I think of anything else that wasn't already mentioned I'll post it.
    take care,
    John

  14. #14
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    Lou,
    Well now that you ask here is my $1.50 worth of very strong opinions. So here it goes and grab a cup of coffee while your at it OK background I started with a Jet contractor saw, then Unisaw, then a 8.5 ft MM S315WS and now the "apple in my eye" a 10.5ft MM Formula S35. I have had a seriuos learning curve along the way and even had a "what the hell did I do" but looking back and seeing what I can now do, it was the best thing I ever did. I will not even start on my other equipment (MM by the way ) As you can see by some of my past posts I feel the American style equipment and saw is simply a dinosaur. Now that Delta, Powermatic... are all gone and everything is now an import the race is now to see who can make it cheaper never mind better. The cabinet saw was invented by Rockwell in the 20's? It has not changed that much since. The Europeans invented the slider a long time ago too but it has evolved and gotten better all the time. You can even get a full CNC slider! Just check out the new SCM Vanguard! It won the best machine/saw award at the AWFS. Never mind Martin thats what I dream about! After this brief intro I will now tackle some of your questions.

    "1. It seems that almost all european saws are now only sliders with big outriggers for sheet stock. What is the advantage of that if I never process any sheet goods. My table saw is mainly used for ripping and much less for cross cutting. For cross cutting dimensional lumber I can use the miter slot on the TS or my pretty accurate RAS or CMS. I really don't want to give up the shop space associated with altendorf or martin sliders. But I am asking the question so my mind is open."

    First throw out that CMS or RAS cause you certainly will not need it. The only thing a SCMS is good for is installing trim especially crown. It is the only reeason I keep mine so that I have something for jobsites and to do work in my own house and not have to go back and forth to the shop. Heck it is not even in my shop anymore, it is now in the basement collecting dust! A well tuned slider and crosscut fence is more accurate then you can even imagine. It simply does not get any better for sheet goods or solid stock. You can rip with a slider, edge joint with the slider, rip with the rip fence if you want, use the rip fence as a stop, crosscut/miter with the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, miter/crosscut with the miter guage attachment. Some of these taks are more specific to my saw and setup so not all saws are created equal. Go ahead ask me my opinion The outrigger table to the left of the blade does come off quite easily. So you can continue to rip/edge joint without it on. I my shop I actually have more space with the outrigger off for assembly than I did with my Unisaw!!!

    "2. What else do european TS offer that american ones do not? Many seem to offer scoring attachments, but then again I see that only for sheet stock and not dimensional lumber. The american saws that I either have or are considering all have real riving knives as do the european saws, so that is not a reason. But there may be many other advantages that I am not aware of."

    Safety, safety, safety, accuracy, accuracy, repeatability, quality...... You can use the scoring blade on solid stock too. It will give you a super clean edge for those fuzz prone woods. The riving knives are otu of this world. Once setup they just simply will not allow kickback (maybe under some freak situation I guess so) but since you will be clamping down your stock or sometimes not when crosscutting your hands nor you will not even be near the blade or the danger zone anyway. There are times when i do still rip the old fashion way. The fence on my S35 can be adjusted high and low and position short or long, is micro adjustable and is ten times more stiff then any Beisemeyer fence period! absolutley no flex in this sucker! When I do rip I stand next to the blade, on the slider side and either move the outrigger table all the way to the end (the outrigger can be positioned anywhere along the slider with limitation only on the length of the support arm travel) and feed the stock against the rip fence with hands before and after the blade! Since I have an overarm guard I am not exposed the blade at all and I am standing on the side of the saw so completely out of the danger zone.

    "3. Is it that european saws are more comfortable to use than american ones?"

    Once you get used to doing things a little differently yes they are 100 times easier than a cabinet saw.

    "4. Ok what ever else you guys or gals can come up with please send it my way "

    Well there are many more things I can think about. I have attached some pictures for some examples the first two are of my current S35 seen with my shop made ripping jig. It allows me to clamp anything to the slider and rip it to width. The jig is simply a square piece of shop ply that I reference off of the crosscut fence, for the desired width needed, I then clamp it down to the outrigger and slider. I also clamp the stock to the slider and jig and then slide away. Now remember I have a 10.5 ft slider so think of the possibilities.

    Edge joining with a slider is a breeze. Remember how long it takes to put a straight edge on a long board on a jointer? Well with the slider I first face joint on my joiner and then clamp that clean side to the slider and then slide away to a perfect 90d edge!

    Have you ever tried to crosscut a mantle top of counter top before? Guess what one the slider you can crosscut not only small stock (all referenced off of the adjustable stops) but large items are just as easy. Even thoguht I am limited do to the size of my shop, I can accurately crosscut up to 8ft with my setup. The crosscut fence does go out further but like I sadi in my case it hits the wall.

    Have you ever tried to crosscut, miter and rip with the same saw without changing setups? Well I can. Just check out the last picture. It is of my old saw, the S315WS, but the principles are the same.

    Well I ahve more bu this should be enough for the first installment, Then we can talk about brands
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
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    Paul,

    Thanks for the post, explaining more about your tablesaw and the excellent pictures. Regarding the shop made ripping jig won't the rip fence allow you to do the same thing, ie. rip to almost any width needed? Sorry for such a simple question.

    Great looking saw by the way!

    Lloyd Morris

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