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Thread: VERY LONG Cyclone Separator Review (dc to cyclone conversion)

  1. #1
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    VERY LONG Cyclone Separator Review (dc to cyclone conversion)

    I mostly just lurk and soak up the knowledge, I figured I would finally contribute to this great forum in hopes that someone will find this useful.

    Ever since I started woodworking I have hated the big dust mess and I am very cautious with my lungs. I have already had a lung operation (unrelated to woodworking) and I can tell you from experience that it hurts like living hell. Literally!
    <O
    So, I usually do all my woodworking wearing a respirator, but still wanted to cleanup and improve my dust collection. Here is my progression to a “homemade” cyclone.
    <O
    I started out with a shop-vac. Not very good. Then I got the HF 2hp dust collector that everyone talks of. Right away I also ordered a wynn environmental filter for it. The filter is supposed to be 99.99% efficient at 0.5 microns. This was a while ago, before they made a special kit, and the filter is a bit different than what they currently send with their kit. It worked well, but lost suction quickly due to buildup of dust (sawdust) in the filter. I began looking at cyclones, but couldn’t bring myself to scrap what I already had invested (maybe $225 with filter) and buy a dust gorilla or a grizzly cyclone. I read up on Pentz page, and read some more. I then came across a cyclone separator on ebay for $139. It looked good, and the total cost to get it shipped to me was only 159, so I took a chance and went for it. This is the cyclone from www.cycloneseparator.com
    <O
    Upon arrival of the filter I opened the box and inspected it. The cyclone is well made, and came reasonably protected. No damage I could see from transit. The unit is not painted or powder coated, but it is for a shop, and I could care less as long as it gets the dust. The seams are not ground and polished after assembly, but again I don’t really care as long as it works.
    <O</O
    I ordered the 7" unit, which is the larger of the two. I made a little plate to attach it to a trashcan, and used a 7"-6" and a 6" to 4" fitting to get it connected to my DC. I then used a 6" to 4" fitting to get a hose put on the thing to test it. This is not an ideal setup by any means. I fired up the DC, and started testing. I will start off by stating that my test dust was actually the dust I vacuumed out of the filter from when it was just a normal DC. It wasn’t particularly fine, or coarse, just a mixture that had clogged the filter over the past few months. I started with my DC filter clean and a brand new clear bag on the bottom. I fed quite a bit of dust in and watched to see what happened.<O</O

    The cyclone in stock configuration worked well, capturing approximately 90% of all the dust. Keep in mind this was with 3 reducers and an immediate 180 degree bend in the 4” flex hose coming off the top of the cyclone to make it back down to the DC inlet. Much less than ideal!!

    After all the time spent reading Pentz’s site I knew that this could be made in to a better cyclone!

    So……I started moding (modifying) it!

    I took the top off of the cyclone, which is pretty easy after you know what you are doing. The top piece is held in place by a bent lip of metal that comes up from the main body of the cyclone. Just pry this up straight, and you can lift the cyclone top off, which includes the outlet pipe. Make sure to put a reference mark on the top and body before you remove it so you can line it back up later!

    Now that the cyclone is disassembled, there are three things to do to really bump up performance. I will list them in order of importance.

    1. Using a blowtorch melt the solder around the stock inlet and remove it from the clyclone. This will leave an oblong hole in the side of the cyclone. Go to home depot, lowes, HVAC shop, or whatever you have available and buy a 2 foot section of 6” snap lock pipe. They come in this size precut in my neck of the woods. Then using the entire pipe reinstall this as the inlet pipe and neutral vane all as one unit. The internal (inside the cyclone) end of the pipe should stick half way in to the diameter of the cyclone. When you position this pipe remember to add a bit of down angle to it. I made it so the external (of the cyclone) end of the pipe (18” or so from the cyclone) is roughly level with the top of the cyclone. This will give the dust a smooth run and a downward flow in to the cyclone. You will also have to cut a small portion off of one side of the pipe on the interior of the cyclone to get it to fit and have enough clearance for the cyclone outlet (which extends down in to the body). After you get it all fit up and ready, go ahead and solder it back in place. This is best done with two people, one holding the pipe and cyclone with heavy gloves and vice grips, and the other to do the soldering. I did mine by myself, and it looks bad, did my buddies with him and it looks great.

    2. Now, measure from the bottom of the cyclone to the bottom of your intake pipe inside the cyclone. You want to make the outlet pipe of the cyclone (7” pipe that sticks down the middle of the top) extend approximately 2.25 to 2.5 inches lower than the neutral vane you created. The way the cyclone comes from the manufacturer it is too long. I had to cut right at 4” off of mine. These measurements apply only to the 7” outlet 6” inlet version of the cyclone. There are two sizes, and this is the proper length for the larger one only. If this pipe is left stock it will suck too much dust from the sides of the cyclone as it starts to fall in to the cone.

    3. While you got the cyclone open and easily available to the inside, go ahead and grind down the rivets that are left on the inside. I don’t know how much of a difference it makes, but it is easy to do.
    <O
    After you have all this done, go ahead and put the top back on. Get it on and bang the lip back down to hold it on. You can solder this, or just put some caulk on it to make it airtight.

    You are now done with the cyclone modification. You can use it as an inline separator, or as a cyclone tower like I built. I wont go in to detail on the build of my tower, but I will mention that I increased the intake to 7” on my DC impeller.

    The first pic is to give you an idea what I ended up with. This is before ducting was run. I ended up running 6” S&D PVC. I am still having to use 4” flex hose for my tool hookups for the time being since I haven’t been able to get any 6” flex hose and still need to finish my 6” blast gates.

    I have to say that I am totally impressed with cyclones and their efficiency. I had about 10 gallons of dust in my trash can today when I emptied it, and in my “cleanout” there is 0.1 oz (yes I weighed it) of really fine dust after cleaning the filter with compressed air. See pic 2 for proof. My best guess is that I had at least 10 lbs of sawdust, probably more, but I didn’t weigh it, as at the time I had no intentions of doing such a write-up! I have about a cubic inch of dust from the cleanout.

    If my simple math is correct (feel free to correct me if it isn’t)! That comes out to an efficiency of 99.875% when calculated by weight, and 99.96% when calculated by volume!!
    <O</O
    Lets say that I am way off, and I have twice the residual sawdust in my filter/cleanout, and only half the amount collected in my trash can. .2 oz and 5lbs respectively by weight, and 2 cubic inches and 5 gallons by volume. That still calculates to an efficiency of 99.75% (weight) and 99.85% (volume)!

    Now, before anyone starts jumping all over me; yes I am sure that most of what is left in the filter and cleanout is the very fine dust, so the cyclone is probably much less efficient when it comes to the very small particles, but in my opinion that is what the filter is there for. The cyclone is to keep the filter from getting clogged and provide for an easier method of emptying the sawdust from the system.

    I hope that I haven’t bored anyone to death and that someone will find this information useful. If anyone would like I can do a write-up of making a tower.

    My buddy is also a woodworker, and after seeing mine he had to have one, so he ordered one and I helped him do the same modifications to it. Took the two of us about 3 hrs to fully modify his cyclone and get started on his tower.

    In conclusion, for about 200 bucks (cyclone, pipe, bolts, threaded rod, nuts, solder, etc) and some time I created a pretty dang good cyclone tower that is now mounted in my shop and I get a great joy out of it every time I hit the remote!

    If you want the next step in performance from your Dust Collector seriously consider this unit.

    Andy
    Last edited by Andy Howard; 08-03-2005 at 1:58 AM.

  2. #2
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    pics

    Picture of completed cyclone tower.

    Last edited by Andy Howard; 08-03-2005 at 1:57 AM. Reason: smaller pic

  3. #3
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    Pics

    Picture of dust from cleanout on a digital scale.


  4. #4
    Thanks for the detailed write up! My next step in my DC evolution is to switch over to larger pipe. After that, I may consider a cyclone like yours.

    Thanks again for the tips!
    Jeff Sudmeier

    "It's not the quality of the tool being used, it's the skills of the craftsman using the tool that really matter. Unfortunately, I don't have high quality in either"

  5. #5
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    Nice work!
    I suggest you tell the manufacturer about how you've improved his product. Hopefully he'll incorporate your modifications, and you'll help lots of woodworker's lungs.

  6. #6
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    Shipping restrictions.

    Jamie,

    I have mentioned this to the manufacturer when I was asking questions about his product. He did not seem interested in modifying his product, and I suspect this is due to the added size it would create and the shipping problems associated with it. It would effectively take it from a 20*20*48 box to a 36*20*48 box, which would make it mush more costly and difficult to ship.

    Andy

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Howard
    Jamie,

    I have mentioned this to the manufacturer when I was asking questions about his product. He did not seem interested in modifying his product, and I suspect this is due to the added size it would create and the shipping problems associated with it. It would effectively take it from a 20*20*48 box to a 36*20*48 box, which would make it mush more costly and difficult to ship.

    Andy
    Dang. What's the line about leading a horse to water?....?

  8. Great write up and a great solution!

    I recently finished my cyclone, I used Bill Pentz's plans, but I have to say, your solution sure looks a lot easier!!

    The again, I bet the shipping to Japan would have been a killer!

    Nice Job!

    PS my cyclone adventure starts here......

    http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/cyclone.htm

    Cheers!

  9. #9
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    Andy,

    Great info. What size motor did you use? How hard is it to dump the can? Did you raise the unit to facilitate dumping? Did you use the Fram filters? If you help someone else build a tower will you take more pics to post?

    I would like to convert my 2hp Grizzley as I too am very concerned about fine dust for health reasons.
    Les

  10. #10
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    The blower is a "claimed" 2 HP motor from harbor freight, but we all know that is not the case.

    I did raise the can off the ground, and it makes dumping the can really easy.

    I did not use the fram filters. I used a filter from wynn environmental.

    If someone in my area wants to get one and take pictures I will be glad to help them convert it, but I have already done my friends, and I dont think anyone in my woodworking guild would be interested in it.......I think in a lot of their eyes I am too young to know anything.

  11. #11
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    full circle

    andy, great job!

    i was just perusing woodworker's association about two days ago and came across a thread mentioning stu ablett and his adventures in japan so i clicked on the link and was UTTERLY AMAZED at what's he been able to BUILD and SALVAGE there in the land of the rising sun - especially the cyclone! so i checked out bill pentz's site and thought, "gee, 20 hours seems like a LOT of time with one daughter and another on the way..." so i looked around and found the cycloneseparator web site and wondered if it might be a good alternative.

    LO AND BEHOLD andy posts this message and stu ablett actually responds to it as well!

    coincidence or fate?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Buxton
    Dang. What's the line about leading a horse to water?....?
    You can lead a horse to drink, but you can't make him water.

    Andy---Looks like a great job on the cyclone conversion, well worth your time and effort.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Forman; 08-04-2005 at 5:44 PM.
    Eternity is an awfully long time, especially toward the end.

    -Woody Allen-

    Critiques on works posted are always welcome

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Buxton
    Dang. What's the line about leading a horse to water?....?
    <B> You can lead a horse to water, but if you can get him to float on his back? THEN you've got something!!!!</B>

    Looks like you DC setup is doing a very fine job. It's always nice to have cleaner air to breathe while working in the shop.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  14. #14
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    Andy,

    What is your area? Don't pay any attention to anyone who thinks you are too young to be knowledgeable . I am a senior citizen who has learned alot from the younger generation. Many of the upcoming great woodworkers are from your generation.
    Les

  15. #15
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    I am outside of Greenville, SC.

    I have got to be the youngest one in our 300+ woodworking guild. I bet the average age is 30 years older than me, maybe higher!

    Andy

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