Woodturning Deaths?

[Reed Gray]

I have never understood the 'fear' factor. To me, that means loss of thinking capacity. I have a very healthy respect for my machines and tools, and what they can do. I remember in my days as a hang glider pilot that some friends commented that I had a 'death wish'. Nothing of the sort. Calculated risk factor yes, but trying to cheat death, absolutely not. We can preach safety as much as we wish, but accidents will happen. That is the engineers problem, you can't make anything idiot proof, because as soon as you do, some one invents a better idiot. We all have a bit of that in us, and some more than others......

robo hippy

[Marvin Hasenak]

The most dangerous "tool" in the shop is the ignorant operator, the second "tool" is the operator that pushes the safety limits with no regards to the safety equipment. If you add the first and second you have an idiot that might sooner or later hurt or kill himself. I have been woodworking for over 60 years, I have a lot of respect for my tools, I know my limits and know the tools limits, and I know what can hurt me. I have never been to the ER or anything more than a band aid because I cut myself with a hand tool.

When something bad happens, most of the time it will be the operators fault. The tool doesn't know what speed to turn the wood at, that is the responsibility of the operator. A lot of times a simple question buy the operator to himself would save a lot of trouble, that question is "Is that really as safe as I think it is?". I push the limits, but on my turning I have steel mandrel in the middle of the piece of wood, and I let it fly, but if I use a funky piece of wood I slow the lathe down until I am sure it is safe to go to a higher speed. Once in the last 20 years I can remember a piece of wood splitting because it was turning to fast, I knew, but I thought I could finish it at that speed. I failed to slow the lathe down, if I had gotten hurt it would have been my fault.

We as a society in general fail to take responsibility for our own actions. Too many automatically blame someone else or something else for their actions. I have yet to find a machine think for me, that is my responsibility, if I use the machine incorrectly, it is MY FAULT, not the machine's fault. The last of my preaching, "Instant Gratification" today too many people want to be professionals way before their time, just because you saw someone else do it doesn't mean you are qualified to do it. That falls under the above ignorance rule.

[Geoff Whaling]

Russell, Good questions.

This may sound paradoxical - I do & I don't consider wood turning, my work or other hobby pursuits, a threat to my life because I make sure I learn about the hazards, risk and the potential consequences of things going wrong.

Why am I a wood turner? I enjoy the challenge of the many disciplines of wood turning, and the skill required to master them with minimum risk. See if you can get hold of David Pye’s “The Nature and Art of Workmanship” well worth reading David’s concept “workmanship of risk and the workmanship of certainty.”

My bottom line? It’s a hobby not a life or death choice! I don't need money or recognition from wood turning. If turning becomes high risk, say due to poor health etc, I will give it away. My bottom line is responsibilities & obligations to my family and friends that I care about.

I think I would seek help for myself and the relationship if earning my "loved ones" or another’s respect means continually being exposed to high levels of risk.

Risk/Reward. My threshold or comfort zone is probably high in some areas as my hobbies & work all involved remote or isolated areas. I am familiar with that life and understand that I have to be prepared & self sufficient, no corner store or help at hand. Even moderate injuries carry a much higher risk in those areas and can easily turn into a fatality. Often we have been the first aider or rescuer on land and at sea.

I won’t bore you but I have done many “risky” things including the occasional climb up to 400’ on telco structures; bashed cross country selecting roads & radio mast sites; regularly fished alone 50 to 80 miles off shore in my 20’ power boat. I ride a 650 cc single trail motorcycle as a regular commute. I rode observed motorcycle trials for 20 years, a pursuit that requires skill, practice, control, observation & patience but also required an aggressive streak at times. All are about choosing the option with the highest probability of success, and achieving it with minimal penalties. My spouse is comfortable and confident in my abilities and knows that I am not prone to making rash decisions or risking our future.

I now have much higher risks as I am battery operated and have had defibrillator / pacemaker for over 8 years now. I have had to modify my life so I can still enjoy my interests. Things including some lathes, shop tools, gas chainsaws & ladders are now off limits or restricted use. The risk is what happens when I have an episode. My cardiologist would prefer I did not do some of them but we have reached an understanding. Do I fully comply – maybe! My Makita electric chainsaw is great though!

The reward – through work & play I have enjoyed the remoteness, the challenges and the satisfaction of doing what many people only get to dream off. I will leave it to others to judge my life & wood turning skills. I just want to enjoy my quota of “years of potential life.”

Seriously very few things are worth gambling your life upon. I have been way past my comfort zone at times & have had to choose the least damaging option, but very rarely for a hobby.

Wood turning is only dangerous if you make it so and many do. “Common sense” is not so common, it’s a mythical concept. Learned behavior & acquired knowledge keeps you safe.

ps that's some of my work, middle right, the spin tops and bowl. I have done much larger work but I prefer linear laminations, combining flat work & lathe skills.

master_1_fs.jpg

[Russell Neyman]

"Common sense” is not so common, it’s a mythical concept."--? Hmmmm. Will need to contemplate that notion for a day or two, Geoff.

Reed: You and I have both experienced turners and people in all walks of life who live in constant, irrational fear that's hard to understand. They lock doors, carry weapons, put up fences, and generally waste their lives.
That's really what this entire thread is all about, isn't it?

[Geoff Whaling]

"Common sense ... is pure BS"--? Hmmmm. Will need to contemplate that notion for a day or two, Geoff.

I think we should clear up a few things, there is a vast difference between “zero harm” style risk management and “a balanced approach to risk.”

My views are towards “a balanced approach to risk.” I’m not reckless. I’m not risk averse either. I have a very realist approach to acknowledge that “zero harm” is a utopian, very expensive over reaction to risk management. Reed nails my thoughts - Calculated risk factor!

However for “a balanced approach to risk” & “calculated risk factor” to work effectively there has to be education and awareness of hazards and risk plus honesty and respect for those involved. Unfortunately there are some who view a few lives lost as collateral damage.

Here are a few thought provoking quotes,

"The Coroners decision confirms it, there is no ‘common sense’, it can’t be assumed and we shouldn’t talk about it because it dumbs down the industry and perpetuates a delusional myth."

http://www.safetyrisk.net/you-dont-b...-common-sense/

"the less training and experience he or she has and the greater the intrinsic danger of the work" - Mr Michael Barnes, State Coroner, Queensland.

"It is my intention to bring about a balanced approach to risk that will have at its heart an emphasis on the importance of communicating risk effectively." Lord Hunt of Kings Heath http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05094.htm

“A key element of risk decision-making is determining if the risk is justified.” (FAA-H-8083-2)

“A reasoned approach gives courage to manage risks not simply avoid them.” David Leggatt, Phillip & Fox http://www.publicadvocate.vic.gov.au...id_Leggatt.pdf

But this link is one of my favorites "Since when did the absence of something demonstrate the presence of something else?" from "All Injuries are Preventable and Other Silly Safety Sayings" - http://www.safetyrisk.net/all-injuri...afety-sayings/

[Ralph Lindberg]

.... They lock doors, carry weapons, put up fences, and generally waste their lives.
That's really what this entire thread is all about, isn't it?

Two famous turners of my acquaintance had a huge falling out over guy one doing a turning demo, while wearing a 9MM strapped to his hip. Guy two was quite upset over the added risk of "packing" while turning. This happened shortly after guy one made a big thing about not going to the AAW symposium in Conn, due to the state rules about concealed weapons.
Then guy one was invited to demo at that symposium, and did, I remembered his statement, but carefully never mentioned it.

[Marvin Hasenak]

Two famous turners of my acquaintance had a huge falling out over guy one doing a turning demo, while wearing a 9MM strapped to his hip. Guy two was quite upset over the added risk of "packing" while turning. This happened shortly after guy one made a big thing about not going to the AAW symposium in Conn, due to the state rules about concealed weapons.
Then guy one was invited to demo at that symposium, and did, I remembered his statement, but carefully never mentioned it.

That is called PPD, Paranoid Personality Disorder, sounds like he has it so bad that if the powers to be knew it, they would remove his weapons from him based on mental defect.

[Geoff Whaling]

That is called PPD, Paranoid Personality Disorder, sounds like he has it so bad that if the powers to be knew it, they would remove his weapons from him based on mental defect.

Are demo audiences that tough in the USA or do you guys just hold them in rough neighborhoods? Wow don't ask questions and I guess its one way to make sure the demo runs to time.

[Russell Neyman]

This discussion of "Woodturning Safety" has taken an unexpected turn.

[Hilel Salomon]

I almost added another point to this thread but decided that I had said enough. It's continuation, however, could include another point. Many of the accidents in woodworking, turning and so many other endeavors are a consequence of poor judgement. We hear-rightfully-about drinking and driving and lately about texting while driving. I can't imagine that too many people text and turn at the same time. I do know of people who drink and turn and allow other things to distract them. I always look forward to my single malt at the end of a long day, but under no circumstances do I go back to the lathe. I have also seen how fatigue can be quite dangerous whether it comes while driving or working with dangerous machinery. Good and safe technique is important but I also think that good judgement is equally necessary. If you don't want to call it common sense, call it something else, but its absence can and often does lead to sloppy technique.

[Geoff Whaling]

Like I say, this conversation has taken on a different light. But it's a good one! And a (mostly) healthy one.

It is a good one, balanced, enlightening very constructive. I've had a few tools and a chuck disappear at collaboration style events over the years, some have come back but I do not think their disappearance was intentional theft and not worthy of gun-toting

Hilel raises some very good points. Medications and pre-existing medical conditions should also be considered. That is one of my hazards that I must manage, the cardiac meds I'm on list fatigue & drowsiness as a side effect. It took quite a while for my body to become adjusted to them. Now I do not even consider turning if I feel tired. This scenario plus potential heat exhaustion is believed to have contributed to the death of the Australian wood turner in Dec 2012.

[John Keeton]

There are varied thoughts on the dangers of turning relative to other common activities, and probably a lot of validity on either side. I would add this comment, unsupported by any evidence beyond my own experiences. Most of us, perhaps all of us, have those days when nothing seems to go right. Usually, those days are apparent early on, but we persist in trying to conquer the "forces" - probably related to lack of quality rest, general lack of focus or a myriad of other factors. It took most of a lifetime for me to finally recognize the futility in that effort. Now, when I recognize one of those days, I smile, thank the good Lord for the "hint", lock the door to the shop and spend the remainder of the day doing activities that do not present inherent risk. I have found a much lower injury rate and greater success in completing a quality turning.

[hu lowery]

Geoff,

Some places they put a Plexiglas guard up between the demonstrator's lathe and the crowd to keep stuff flying off the lathe from hitting the crowd. Around here the guard is there to protect the demonstrator from the stuff thrown at him from the audience. Tough crowd!

Hu

[Geoff Whaling]

John that is excellent advice, I'm the same but I discovered that much earlier in life thankfully.

[Geoff Whaling]

I though I would add this comment into the discussion as well,

“Hale 2003 (p 198) argues that emotion must be the basis for concern with health and safety, and that without moral outrage at unnecessary suffering and premature death, health and safety has no purpose or meaning.” – “Something to Think About – Motivations, Attitudes, Perceptions and Skills in Work Health and Safety” - Dr Liz Bluff 2011.

Turning injury and death rates relative to population are insignificant in epidemiology statistics, but they are concerning relative to the numbers of turners.

The AAW and many in the turning community share the view that what a turner does in their own shops is their business, their choice; but they also have empathy for the welfare of their friends and fellow turners.

Things are slowly changing for the better and there is now far less acceptance or tolerance of turners teaching or demonstrating "risky" turning techniques to others at symposia & in clubs. The motivation and interest is about promoting "safer" workshops and turning techniques through education and example - not a desire to control or dictate to others what they should or must do. The subject is emotive – emotions affect what and how we do things. Many of us are perhaps selfish and don’t want to see or experience unnecessary grief or suffering.

This is a turners shared injury notification -
“This was just a small bark inclusion that slightly nicked my tool rest which blow the piece apart. This was a year ago. Broken nose and a few deep cuts. Ct, MRI all clear but holy crap did that hurt both physically and ego wise.”