Can I Gel Stain over Regular Stain?

[Al Launier]

I just finished making a jewelry box out of hard maple.I used Minwax Pre-Stain Wood Conditioner per can directions to minimize/avoid(?) blotching. I then used Minwax Cherry oil stain per directions, wiping the excess off & letting it dry4-6 hours (per can directions) before applying the next coat of stain. I applied three coats, yet there was some blotching & the stain really didn't come out as dark as I wanted. I have not applied the Minwax Polycrylic coat yet.

So, I'm wondering if I could use a gel stain, or a dye, on top of the existing stain to cover the blotching & darken the color. Keeping in mind that I'm a beginner at staining, i.e., this is my very first staining project, so 've much to learn. I do have Bob Flexner's book "Wood Finishing 101", which is very helpful, but I'm hoping you experts can weigh in with your opinions.

Thanks for your comments.

[Al Launier]

Looks like I may have found an answer to my question.
http://www.woodcraft.com/articles/ar...eid=764&page=1

[Jim Becker]

Al, for future reference, hard and close grained woods like maple are best colored using dyes, rather than pigment-based stains like the Minwax products. And yes, the gel stain could be helpful to you since it's designed to "stay on top", for the most part. Do you have some project scraps to test on? Never attempt to color a project without first testing your intended finishing regimen on scrap first.

[Al Launier]

Al, for future reference, hard and close grained woods like maple are best colored using dyes, rather than pigment-based stains like the Minwax products. And yes, the gel stain could be helpful to you since it's designed to "stay on top", for the most part. Do you have some project scraps to test on? Never attempt to color a project without first testing your intended finishing regimen on scrap first.

Thanks Jim, good advice.
Actually, I did try out a test piece first, using the Minwax Pre-Stain Wood Conditioner & then several Minwax stains on a test piece of scrap hard maple (two boxes required, one for both my wife & daughter) so they could choose the color stain they wanted, but later my wife decided she prefers paint to stain (go figure).

I tried the recommendation noted above, but it (50% DNA/50% water) didn't work at all. I tried Mineral Spirits & it cleaned the stained box well of any residual oil, etc. I then went to a local "paint" store, anticipating I would get better advice than from the local big box store. I reviewed my "situation" & discussed using Gel stain or a Dye. Instead, they recommended using a water-based stain by SAMAN (http://www.amazon.com/SamaN-TEW-212-.../dp/B0067NHKNE). I chose the Antique Walnut color as it is a lighter Walnut color & better complimented the Black Walnut lid than did the Cherry stain which turned out much lighter that expected. Hopefully the water-based darker stain will also hide the blotching if I can't sand it all off. It shouild also allow the Black Walnut miter splines to contrast a bit with the box sides.

I'm not so sure I'll ever use hard maple with stain again for this type of application, as the grain is so tight & hard. Hard maple doesn't seem to absorb well. Lesson learned!

[John TenEyck]

Al, you should consider using a chemical stripper to remove as much of the stains you've used as much as possible. This will minimize the amount of sanding you have to do. Good luck with the water based stain - I have my doubts that it won't blotch. Please let us know how it works.

FWIW, I have had lots of trouble dying maple, too. Dying is not nearly as foolproof with respect to blotching as many would lead you to believe. If you flood on the dye as some recommend you can still get blotching if the wood is prone to do so. The only way I've found that I can avoid blotching is to spray light coats of dye so that there is no excess liquid that can migrate.

John

[Jim Becker]

Do consider that one man's "blotch" is another man's "figure".

[Al Launier]

Al, you should consider using a chemical stripper to remove as much of the stains you've used as much as possible. This will minimize the amount of sanding you have to do. Good luck with the water based stain - I have my doubts that it won't blotch. Please let us know how it works.

FWIW, I have had lots of trouble dying maple, too. Dying is not nearly as foolproof with respect to blotching as many would lead you to believe. If you flood on the dye as some recommend you can still get blotching if the wood is prone to do so. The only way I've found that I can avoid blotching is to spray light coats of dye so that there is no excess liquid that can migrate.

John

John, today I spent several hours sanding to remove the old stain, having to be careful not to sand off the contour features from routing the base. I'm hoping the water-based stain will work, but if it doesn't & I have to try again to remove more stain, what stripper would you recommend? Frankly, I'm getting tired working on this box. Think I'll venture into something else for future hobbyist projects.

[John TenEyck]

Al, I like Kleanstrip Premium stripper. It takes off most anything, very efficiently, much better than sanding. Try your WB stain on an inconspicuous area if you can to make sure it works. If any of your OB stain is still in the pores the WB stain might not be absorbed. If that happens stripping it might be in order, or an alternative approach to coloring it. One fail safe way of putting color on things is toning. Mixing Transtint dye in dewaxed shellac and spraying it on will color the workpiece uniformly w/o blotching. And shellac sticks to everything so any old stain still stuck in the pores wouldn't be a problem.

John

[Al Launier]

Thanks John.

I had a can of spray stripper by "Crown" that is supposed to be a "tough stripper" (no pun intended) that I tried on the scrap piece of hard maple that I tested the stain on initially. I let it soak for 10 minutes & it actually did nothing to remove any of the stain. In its description it claims to remove paint & other "layers" of finishes, but not stain which penetrates the wood. So, I'm thinking that this particular stripper works only on a built-up coating, perhaps others are similar in this regard too. I was hoping it would work to remove some of the pre-stain wood conditioner so I can start over from scratch with the water-based stain as I feel the pre-stain may inhibit the soaking of the stain.

I've already sanded about 90% of the box, so I'll just sand the rest of it today & be done with it. At least the sanded surfaces will be fresh for the new water-based stain & I'll learn how well that works(???). Regardless, I'll pick up a can of Kleenstrip Premium stripper next time I visit the paint store.

Thanks for your advice.

[John TenEyck]

Stain in the pores is hard to remove even with the best stripper; even Kleanstrip won't get it all out. However, it will remove nearly any film finish and get the wood as clean as possible so it's a good tool to have in your arsenal for when you might need it. As far as I can tell it keeps forever so there's no worries on shelf life.

John

[Lee Schierer]

John, today I spent several hours sanding to remove the old stain, having to be careful not to sand off the contour features from routing the base. I'm hoping the water-based stain will work, but if it doesn't & I have to try again to remove more stain, what stripper would you recommend? Frankly, I'm getting tired working on this box. Think I'll venture into something else for future hobbyist projects.

With Maple, if you want a darker color, only sand to 150 or 180. The rougher surface will collect more stain and helps to hide the blotching as well. Extra coats of finish will make the surface as nice as if it had been sanded to 220 or higher.

The water based stain is likely to raise the grain a bit.

[Prashun Patel]

Al,

I rarely ever use stripper. I think you were on the right path with the gel stain. A gel stain darker than the original oil stain will reduce the blotching. In fact, using a dark stain over a lighter one has the additional beneficial effect of making the color appear like it has a warm undertone. It gives the finish a depth that a single color does not.

In fact, after applying the gel stain, you can seal it with shellac and then apply an even blacker gel stain as a glaze. You work it into the corners and into the pores, and then dab it off. This can have the effect of darkening and antiquing the surface even further.

That's my 2cents.

[Al Launier]

With Maple, if you want a darker color, only sand to 150 or 180. The rougher surface will collect more stain and helps to hide the blotching as well. Extra coats of finish will make the surface as nice as if it had been sanded to 220 or higher.

The water based stain is likely to raise the grain a bit.

Thanks Lee, I'm going to save this tip!

[Al Launier]

Al,

I rarely ever use stripper. I think you were on the right path with the gel stain. A gel stain darker than the original oil stain will reduce the blotching. In fact, using a dark stain over a lighter one has the additional beneficial effect of making the color appear like it has a warm undertone. It gives the finish a depth that a single color does not.

In fact, after applying the gel stain, you can seal it with shellac and then apply an even blacker gel stain as a glaze. You work it into the corners and into the pores, and then dab it off. This can have the effect of darkening and antiquing the surface even further.

That's my 2cents.

Thanks Prashun, appreciate your comment. I'm learning a lot from all you experienced woodworkers.

[Al Launier]

Well, I applied the water-based stain noted above on the freshly sanded hard maple. I sanded enough to remove the pre-stain wood conditioner to get down to the raw wood It came out surprisingly well, totally (well almost). The blotches did not appear as they did before when I used the pre-stain. Looks like I'm noew a water-based stain fan.

When the Polycrylic coating has dried thoroughly I’ll post some pictures.