Question on Fettling frog from old #3 Bailey

[Don Morris]

Inherited a several handplanes from my Father-in-law when he died, a Swedish cabinet maker, so I'm not sure of their exact history. I'm in the process of restoring/Fettling them to at least a "useable" handplane. This post is about a #3 Bailley. The part of the Frog that touches the metal of the body is sanded down so there is metal to metal contact and seems stable. I read Jim Koepke's thread in 2007 on "Fettling..." However, the side of the frog on which the blade and chipbreaker sit was not sanded down to metal. The Frog on that side has the same finish on it that is on the on the rest of the Frog and most of the non-friction surface of the hand plane. It looks rather smooth and sort of as if it was meant to be that way. But in the photos I've seen on Koepke's and another post, that portion of the Frog touching the blade was sanded so there would be metal to metal contact between it and the blade. Which is correct or does it matter?

Hmmmm, just changed photo saving method to iCloud on my iMac and having trouble loading photos. Does the write up give enough info? If it does, great, if not, I'll continue swearing at the computer and Apple and try to figure out iCloud sharing. I will persist and eventually be able to share photos. But that could take a while. Thanks for any guidance to help me keep these treasured family heirlooms in use. BTW, I've written before, I married the Swedish cabinet makers daughter and she gave me a Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane for Christmas one year. How's that for a great woodworker's wife?

[Jim Koepke]

Don, do you know the type (date of manufacture) of this plane?

My next question would be is the blade bedding mostly a single flat surface or does the blade only seat around the edges? It may be some of the later planes had a fully painted surface.

As to your image storage, with an image on screen, if you press shift-command-4 together it should give cross hairs that can then be positioned in one corner of an image. Then click and hold while dragging to the opposite far corner and release. This should make an image file on your desktop. That should be easy to upload to a post.

I have never gone with the iCloud so I am not sure if you can navigate through to an image from the image posting software on SMC.

jtk

[don wilwol]

I can't help but think if you inherited the planes from a cabinet maker, they probably already work well. Are you trying to fix a problem?

I also don't know much about icloud, but some pictures may help.

[Don Morris]

Been out of town for a while, Thanks for chiming in. Grandpa had been retired as a "worker' for many years. He put his tools away and was called in to supervise in a Cabinetry factory. So they had been sitting in a large bench for many years, untouched, gathering rust and dust. He grew up as the son of a Swedish cabinet maker, working in his shop, so he had great knowledge of wood and cabinetry making. I'm still working on the photos, still kicking myself for putting them in the Cloud. I have contacts that understand it better, but in the meantime....Thanks for the reply. There are no clear manufacturing dates I can see. Just behind the frog mounting area is "MADE IN USA". Under the Tote is "C 455". On the Frog part in question that contacts the blade, just forward of the Yoke, is "C 465". Just below the 2 screw mounts of the Frog in the recessed portion is the number "2". The entire Frog is covered with a reddish finish except as mentioned on the underneath 4 spots which sit on the body. It looks like a spray painted job, to me fairly well done. That's why I was asking if it was meant to remain or whether they just didn't go through the effort to remove the paint in the raised areas where the blade would contact it so there would be metal to metal contact. Overall, the Frog, yoke, lateral adjusting lever, brass turning knob all look in good condition. The handplane body itself looks in good condition, much better that some of the others (particularly a #6 which probably belonged to Great Grandpa, I've just begun to start on the #6 and it has a patent date of '02). Again, Great Thanks for your comments.

[don wilwol]

Look down to the tuneing the frog part http://www.timetestedtools.com/bench...e.-part-2.html

[Don Morris]

I've looked several times, I didn't see the Frog on the side where the blade touched it, which would, I believe you suggest, clear up the mystery of whether to sand it down to the metal or leave the finish in place. Maybe I missed it. Still looking for the answer to the question of whether or not to sand the finish off the Frog where the blade is placed against it. Is it a good idea to do that? Or is it not necessary?

[steven c newman]

Like this?
IMAG0102.jpgIMAG0008.jpgIMAG0032.jpgIMAG0196.jpgIMAG0060.jpg
Take your pick, which ever one looks like your's. These have all been refurbbed,

[Bob Woodburn]

The answer I'd give you is sand it off. It's probably not as flat as you think. Painted up as it is, advancing and retracting the blade should scour and peal the paint up into lumps and bumps wherever the blade and frog touch, that or simply increase friction/drag unless it's really hard paint. No advantage to any of that.

I'm guessing when frog was painted ("reddish" as you say) someone was too busy to mask off the surface. Or, perhaps the purpose was to cover rust and grime rather than prep the surface. Old guys have told me from time to time they painted their planes (and all their tools) plain or fluorescent orange or red to deter thieves and aid in identifying stolen tools if they were lifted anyway. So many tools have orange or red paint on them out in the wild (dingy basements and garages, job sites) that it is unlikely to be a specific identifying blemish. There may be more superstitious reasons of which I haven't been informed; maybe it prevents ringworm. I suppose your paint could be iron oxide based primer applied in the midst of a rehab job that didn't get finished; but I don't see the sense in priming the frog any more than priming and painting the sole. Maybe the paint denotes a special prototype or hide a cracked casting.

The functional point here is that your blade shouldn't rock, twist or lean on the frog when in use. That it doesn't make these movements when the chipbreaker and level cap are off can be a possible indicator of future success. Dreamers talk about having the full length of a Bailey blade in full contact all the way up the whole surface of the frog to dampen vibrations and such. If I put an old Bailey blade on a flat surface I'll see it is very far from flat usually, so a flat frog is irrelevant to me. Screw down the chip breaker on the blade, and the blade surface touching the frog will be quite concave (as is the obvious design of the breaker/blade assembly). At best one hopes for the flat hardened steel on the bottom inch or two of the blade to rest on a flat (or slightly concave) inch or two of frog surface. Good registration between blade and frog could be important only at the last 1/4 inch or so (no visible light breaking through, you can't shove a square of cigarette paper or tin foil between the blade and frog when everything is buckled up and clamped down, etc., etc.). Again, the functional issue is that the blade and frog should have good solid contact contact with each other near the mouth. If the bevel side of the blade is domed, or the frog is width-wise, you're basically screwed, unless you want to flatten that side of the blade or put the frog in your milling machine. Shims can work a little, but.... So on and so forth.

[steven c newman]

Usually, I use a beltsander. Held upside down in a vise.

One can clamp the frog in a padded metal vise, and use a file to flatten the face. Any and all places with a metal to metal contact can be cleaned of paint. The small ramp in the base at the mouth opening can be smoothed out, by installing the frog so it lines up with the ramp. Then file both together. The face can be filed or sanded flat and paint-free, just watch out for the lateral sticking up. The "cam" that adjusts the depth of cut will just swing out of the way, if the wheel is removed. Remove it anyway, to polish the brass up. Mask off all areas you have just sanded, filed flat and square. Mask the bolt for the adjustor. Spray what isn't masked with Ford Engine Black in the Rattle can. Remove the masking. Put a few drops of 3in1 oil on a small paint brush, and given the bare iron a swipe to coat. Wipe down the excess. Take the plane for a test drive...

[Don Morris]

Sounds like most agree that metal to metal is what the doctor ordered. Makes sense to me. I'm working on getting a photo. Will try using an Android with which I'm more familiar sending photos to you. I just got the iPhone last month, and the reason I'm not familiar with it. Right now I'm pressed for time as LOML has some eye surgery appts. that are out-of-town and for multiple days in a row.

[Don Morris]

I used an Android notebook/phone to take these. I use it mainly to control a SONOS sound system, but it took on double duty today. Here are two photos of the #3 Bailey with the surface of the Frog as described: a reddish finish which looks like a paint job to me. But I think I've made up my mind to sand it down to metal unless you see something I haven't picked up on. Sorry about the rotation, on the Android, they are oriented correctly.

Attachment 311509Attachment 311510

[Jim Koepke]

I used an Android notebook/phone to take these. I use it mainly to control a SONOS sound system, but it took on double duty today. Here are two photos of the #3 Bailey with the surface of the Frog as described: a reddish finish which looks like a paint job to me. But I think I've made up my mind to sand it down to metal unless you see something I haven't picked up on. Sorry about the rotation, on the Android, they are oriented correctly.

Attachment 311509Attachment 311510

For some reason your images do not appear.

Sanding down to metal sounds like a good idea.

I tried attaching an image just to see if there was a difference and now it is here to stay.

jtk

[Don Morris]

I got it, I tried what Google said to do to reduce the file size for Mac's, but that didn't match what I saw on my screen. Finally, I happened to hit a ">" arrow next to some other command that wasn't particularly related to file size, but it brought up the screen where you could select file size. this was followed by a loud "YES" by yours truly. So here it is, a photo of the #3 Bailey with the Frog showing the painted surface where upon the blade sits. But I'm convinced it needs to be sanded down to metal and I'll post a photo of the finished Frog when I get to that point. Thanks to all who took their time to reply. Sawmillcreek is the best site and I support it with praise for the members and $.

IMG_0317.jpg

[Bob Woodburn]

Oh, Gosh, Don. Quite a picture.

Eventually you'll come to know what you've got there; no reason to lay it out my opinions as if I was a sort of know-it-all. The tip off being the stamped lateral and the superfluous maroon paint from the factory. To my eye, it looks like the post-1970s Stanley factory had at that stage skipped machining the frog between pulling the cast frog out of the sand mold and the paint job.

Perhaps your father-in-law was like my dad. My dad (b. 1906), a Swede too, was a young buck in a rural town during the Great Depression with lots of stories from those times. Like 5 cent hamburgers. In his 80s, a lonesome widower, he lived in a large retirement housing development, had lost his drivers license and spent his remaining years walking around joking with other geezers and squeezing nickels. On weekends the place was peppered with yard and estate sales. Lots of widows selling off handyman stuff, clothes and accumulated treasures at pennies on the dollar. When dad died, I learned the full extent of the "bargains" he packed home from his walks and hoarded away in paper boxes. Stuff that had evidently attracted his eye 30 and 40 years earlier, but had long since been supplanted in the marketplace. Sadly I'm becoming no different. In his prime dad had been a shrewd, discriminating, stylish man and no sucker for messing around with "bargains" at any cost. Aging is a killer.

[Jim Koepke]

Don,

As Bob mentioned, your plane is from the age of painted frogs out of the Stanley factory.

IMO, sanding might be an improvement.

My suggestion would be to first try this plane as it is. If it can take even shavings, then there is hope. If it chatters and is difficult to use, then this plane might be usable as a scrub plane.

jtk