Would Roller Guides Noticeably Improve Bandsaw Performance?

[Julie Moriarty]

My concerns about over tensioning come from (A) breaking the blade and (B) damaging the tires, or even the wheel bearings.

The largest blade I own is a 1". I can't see breaking that but I can see that blade taking more tension than the wheel bearings can.

The smallest blade I own is 3/16". I have no idea how much tension that blade can take but I can see that blade digging into the tires and ruining them. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe something like this doesn't happen with urethane tires. I don't know, but I don't want to run experiments to find out.

According to the tension guide on the back of the saw, I always over tension.

This is the setting I have for a 1/4" blade. I figured the manufacturer put this there for a reason - to use it to set the tension for a given blade's width. I also figured if you tension too far past where the guide shows the tension should be, you might damage something. Again, maybe I'm wrong and the guide is meaningless. I don't know, and again, I don't want to run any experiments to find out.

When setting the tension on a blade, I always do the touch test, like Sondgrass shows in his video. When I've tensioned sailboat stays and shrouds, I do pretty much the same thing. They make a tool to measure tension but since I've never had a rig come down on me, and I've sailed in some pretty rough weather, I'd say the touch test works pretty well. So I figured if I can do that on a sailboat, bandsaws shouldn't be a problem. But I'll admit, I have more experience on sailboats than I do on bandsaws. Still, getting the tension right on bandsaws should be markedly easier. But maybe I'm wrong there, too.

[Keith Hankins]

I would not use the tension settings on the band saw as an absolute. It's generic and each mfg of a blade could require slightly different setting. Google flutter method for band saw tension. It's simple takes about 5 minutes to master, and works and is blade mfg independent. Give it a try.

[Julie Moriarty]

I would not use the tension settings on the band saw as an absolute. It's generic and each mfg of a blade could require slightly different setting. Google flutter method for band saw tension. It's simple takes about 5 minutes to master, and works and is blade mfg independent. Give it a try.

Thanks, Keith. I haven't seen that before. What I found interesting is yesterday, when I had the side guides backed off all the way, I noticed the flutter. The flutter test video I just watched said tensioning by the tension guide should eliminate flutter. But on mine, the 1/4" blade was tensioned to almost 1/2" and it still fluttered. I ended up having to take it to 3/4" before it stopped fluttering.

[Wayne Cannon]

Michael Fortune, at a woodworking show tutorial session, preferred traditional guide blocks (of any material?) over bearings. He pointed out that a tiny piece of sawdust in or on a bearing results in a slight blade wobble. It requires very good technique to make a cut smooth enough that you would notice such a small wobble, but it made a difference to him.

[Robert Engel]

I agree with the poster re: almost every time I've had an issue with resawing (as long as the set up is right) its the blade. One thing I do is dedicate the resaw blade to resawing only. I'm lazy and don't want to change blades, so I picked up a smaller BS for normal cutting. I finally realized if I'm in a hurry and using the resaw blade for other things cause I don't want to change it, then it will dull it quicker. Have to remember its essentially a ripping blade, not crosscut.

I've had the same experience as you re: blades seeming to dull quickly. One time I resawed white oak an 8" wide board about 6 feet long and after about 8 passes I could tell the blade was already going dull. This was a 1/2" Wood Slicer I got from Highland. I'm seriously thinking of breaking down and getting a carbide but for my 18" bandsaw its alot of money.

I'm of the opinion that when my blade is wandering during resawing, the first things I check are blade tension (not usually an issue) and the thruster bearing.
If those check out, I change the blade and I'm usually off to the races.

[Curt Harms]

I agree with the poster re: almost every time I've had an issue with resawing (as long as the set up is right) its the blade. One thing I do is dedicate the resaw blade to resawing only. I'm lazy and don't want to change blades, so I picked up a smaller BS for normal cutting. I finally realized if I'm in a hurry and using the resaw blade for other things cause I don't want to change it, then it will dull it quicker. Have to remember its essentially a ripping blade, not crosscut.

I've had the same experience as you re: blades seeming to dull quickly. One time I resawed white oak an 8" wide board about 6 feet long and after about 8 passes I could tell the blade was already going dull. This was a 1/2" Wood Slicer I got from Highland. I'm seriously thinking of breaking down and getting a carbide but for my 18" bandsaw its alot of money.

I'm of the opinion that when my blade is wandering during resawing, the first things I check are blade tension (not usually an issue) and the thruster bearing.
If those check out, I change the blade and I'm usually off to the races.

I've read elsewhere that Woodslicers are not the longest lived. Really sharp and work great when new though. I've had pretty good luck with SuperCut Premium Gold blades. They're not expensive and seem to wear well. I asked the people at Supercut how the Premium Gold blade compares to Bimetal. They sell both. The guy I talked to said it depended on the wood. Supercut also sells dedicated resaw blades but I have no experience with them. Lenox' DieMaster 2 gets pretty good reviews for value. Not as smooth cutting as something like a TriMaster but not the $$$ either.

[Al Launier]

Thanks for the replies.

The problems I've been having lately all happen during resawing, and drift has become a serious issue. After doing an upgrade a couple of years ago (silicone rubber tires, new fence and a bunch of new blades), everything had been running smoothly. I would just set up the fence and cut away. Now the blades seem to have a mind of their own.

From observing what's going on, all I can see that's a problem is the knurled nuts on the side guides tend to loosen, no matter how much I hand-tighten them. On a couple of occasions, the guides closed and clamped down on the blade. This is all fairly recent. I haven't yet resorted to using hand tools to tighten them and I don't believe I should. That's not how they were designed and I've never needed to in the past. The times the guides closed on the blade may have scored the insides of the guides. I can't see any gouges but at certain angles I do see what might be slight scoring. When I looked at this picture through the camera, I thought I could see scoring, but the picture didn't show it.


This morning, I took a piece I had earlier tried to resaw, but drifted badly, and cut it freehand from the other end. I zig-zagged the cut until I met the previous cut. When I opened the two halves, I saw the previous cut had burn marks. The part I cut this morning didn't. The blade I used previously was fairly new. When I was making the previous cut, I attributed the burning to the fact the drift was pressing the wood against the fence. Maybe the blade had prematurely dulled? I know the teeth were clear of the guides, so that shouldn't be the problem.

Whatever it is, I think it's somewhere between the side guides and the blades. I didn't consider the blades being the problem because they were fairly new. But maybe Lenox dulls just as quickly as Woodslicer? I've never been crazy about the friction created with the OEM setup. Roller guides should get rid of that. I realize they aren't cheap but if they work, I won't be ruining pricey woods and my frustration would end. There's value in that.

Have you tried using a compression spring to keep the screws from loosening?
Plus, did you pre-tension the Carter blade, i.e. push it forward ~ 1/8" toward you, before using?

[Bill White]

I used Cool Blocks on my now sold Magna (ShopSmith) 11" for years. My Grizz 0555LX has bearings. Keeping the bearing surface clean is a bit of a chore as was said. I'd go back to the Cool Blocks if it weren't for the expense of changing the guide system.
Bill

[john lawson]

I switched from rollers to Laguna ceramics, best thing I ever did to a bandsaw

[Prashun Patel]

Given that you've been using this for a while without issue, and the nuts seem to be loosening, could it be that your saw is just vibrating?

I noticed with my last saw (G0555, 14") there was some vibration. That saw had bearing guides. They (like yours) would work their way loose frequently. I didn't like them for this and other reasons: I had a tough time keeping them aligned; and they would sieze up often so I had to replace them frequently (cheap but a pain).

I was leery of buying my current saw (19" Grizzly) because it had bearing guides too. However they stay put. I think it's just a more stable saw so there's less rattling to loosen things up.

I don't think switching to rollers will help you;

Is it possible that your motor belt or tires are worn or something else is otherwise loose?

Last, dumb question alert: You're using the right blade, right? I prefer 3tpi for resawing (but I'm not making veneer). I have found that the guides and tension are a distant, distant second to using the right blade. I now just eyeball both and it cuts straight.

[Myk Rian]

The flutter test video I just watched said tensioning by the tension guide should eliminate flutter..

I would re-read it. The flutter method is completely independent of the tension gauge.

[Curt Harms]

Re tension gauges I have a Rikon 10-325 so not like Julie's saw. I don't know if the gauge is working properly but to get the same 'press on it' tension on different blades of the same width requires different settings. One 1/4" blade may be pretty good when set to 1/4" on the tension gauge. Another 1/4" blade may need to read 5/8" on the tension gauge to be tensioned close to right. One trick I've found on my saw is it has a window in the top door to be able to see the tension gauge. Through that window I can see the area where the return side of the blade comes in contact with the top wheel. If the blade is too loose it'll flutter just before it contacts the wheel. As I tension the blade the flutter goes away. I feel like I'm using the 'flutter' method without having to mess with the blade guides.

[Julie Moriarty]

Have you tried using a compression spring to keep the screws from loosening?
Plus, did you pre-tension the Carter blade, i.e. push it forward ~ 1/8" toward you, before using?

There is no room for springs. What I recently started doing was tightening the inner nut and then tightening both the inner and outer together. I can get a better grip on them and they seem to stay put now.

According to the Snodgrass setup, the blade should sit about 1/16" away from the thrust bearings. But when using Carter's bandsaw Stabilizer, the blade is pushed forward, but that is only for scroll cutting. If I understand everything correctly.

Given that you've been using this for a while without issue, and the nuts seem to be loosening, could it be that your saw is just vibrating?

I noticed with my last saw (G0555, 14") there was some vibration. That saw had bearing guides. They (like yours) would work their way loose frequently. I didn't like them for this and other reasons: I had a tough time keeping them aligned; and they would sieze up often so I had to replace them frequently (cheap but a pain).

I was leery of buying my current saw (19" Grizzly) because it had bearing guides too. However they stay put. I think it's just a more stable saw so there's less rattling to loosen things up.

I don't think switching to rollers will help you;

Is it possible that your motor belt or tires are worn or something else is otherwise loose?

Last, dumb question alert: You're using the right blade, right? I prefer 3tpi for resawing (but I'm not making veneer). I have found that the guides and tension are a distant, distant second to using the right blade. I now just eyeball both and it cuts straight.

The vibration thing came to mind yesterday. I have a little stuffed animal one of my kids gave me years ago, sitting on top of the bandsaw. While cutting some cedar yesterday, it kept falling off. That's never happened before. But I recently bought a mobile base for the bandsaw and I did not drop it down, off the wheels, before cutting, so that may have been why the stuffed animal vibrated off.

I replaced the tires a few years ago with urethane tires. They still look good. There's no indication the motor is failing and the belt seems fine.

As to your "dumb question", it's not dumb. I may have "challenged" the wrong blade to resaw more than it was intended to. I, too, sometimes get lazy and if all I have to do is resaw a short piece, I might not change to the proper blade. But it never occurred to me I might be ruining the blade, until I watched the Matthias bandsaw physics video again.

I haven't needed to do any resawing lately to see if the mini tuneup I just did makes a difference. I still can't wrap my head around why the guide bearings would have no effect on resawing and that tension and blade sharpness are all you need to get right. If I misunderstood that concept, please correct me. But as I imagine the roller bearings at work, it just seems that with less friction, things would work better.

I do know there's another thread I found here (after I started this one) that seems to sing the praises of the Carter bandsaw guide upgrade.

I would re-read it. The flutter method is completely independent of the tension gauge.

The video I saw was by Tom Casper from American Woodworker. He said if you have a sharp blade, the scale on the bandsaw should work just fine. Later in the video, after adjusting to eliminate flutter, he said he'd bet the scale setting would be close to the blade size in the saw. Apparently, he believes in the scale.

[glenn bradley]

Using the side guides to force the blade to be straight between them is the wrong way of going about it.

John

I agree. Extreme tension is also not a fix for other probems. I am not sure why bandsaws are such a vortex of voodoo and mystery ;-) Using the guides to force the blade to track is one thing in a sawmill where timber is shooting past the blade all day long and blade characteristics change over a short period of time. In my shop I have different requirements.

A well aligned saw will track a blade just fine with 'appropriate' tension for the bldae type. I have roller guides on my larger saw because that is what came on the saw. I have cool blocks on my smaller saw because they tolerate small blades better than the steel guides that were stock.

I often don't even bother to lower the guides after resawing tall stock. The blades track fine and want to go straight. Something is influencing the cutter (bad set, dull, misaligned machine, etc.) if it is wandering. If you are having tracking probems I would resolve that before changing your guides which look fine to me.

So, as mentioned, you get as many different answers as their are craftsman ;-)

[Prashun Patel]

In my experience, tension has a wide tolerance. I'm always over or under tensioned slightly and it just doesn't make a difference. As long as the blade is not fluttering then it seems to cut fine. It even cuts fine when it's slightly fluttering, but it just doesn't sound right, so I try to eliminate that.

As for the guides, I know they play a role, but if the tracking, tension, and blade are right, there's a big tolerance on this. I set my guides pretty loose. The guides are there to nudge, not to wrestle. When the bearings are too close or the blade wanders, used bearings can whine and scream at me. On my old saw, there were times I was able to work for months without replacing a siezed bearing by backing it off a little and not allowing it to get to the scream. This happened when I failed to clean my lower guides, and pitch siezed one up.

So, you have THAT to look forward to if you switch away from your current guides.