Is The Dust-Free Workshop A Myth?

[Brian W Smith]

So,Yonak what exactly are the neighbors concerns?.......burning down the house with an exploded frozen turkey....and having 6 hrs worth of fire dept showing up at our residence or dissipating some,"green" saw dust?Just sayin.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I fill two 44 gal. bags of sawdust a week. I'm trying to figure out where in my neighborhood that would go.

That, and putting my noisy machines outdoors. I just want to be a good neighbor.

[Brian W Smith]

Sounds like you're collecting the sawdust,exactly what is the problem?

[Yonak Hawkins]

...exactly what is the problem?

Indeed.

...

[Chris Parks]

Dust collection is different to chip collection and for the most part those who say their dust collection works well really mean the chip collection works well. I doubt there is a generic bag type collector made by any company that does not leak fine dust back into the workshop. The dust/debris collector should be isolated from the main working area if that is to be avoided and the air then returned through filtration to avoid returning that fine dust. Most WW machines have to be suitably modified to achieve good collection at the source and very few of us put the effort in to do that. Even the Europeans cheat on the design of their machines, the 5"port on all Hammer machines goes into a 4" duct behind it. I think the European regulation specifies a 5" port and Hammer fulfill that obligation but then cut costs by installing the 4" duct.

[Jim Dwight]

The comment that small dust is easier to get to move seems right but is really wrong. It is true that it will move easily but that isn't just in the direction of the DC. It also moves easily out of range of the DC. Larger pieces move less easily but that means they don't "get away". If you want to be sure you get all the fine dust, you need to clear the air from a larger area because it will move farther from the source of generation. Maybe I have the velocity thing wrong but I am sure that the Pentz point is a big DC is necessary to get all the fine dust. My practical experience is hard to pin down because I was switching filtration but seems to be consistent with fine dust being harder to collect.

The "open the doors" comment is, of course, the practical alternative for many of us. My current shop has a 9 foot wide garage door on the front and a normal 3 foot passage door on the back. Plus a couple windows. I normally have the windows closed but at least the garage door open. Bugs like the opening, of course, but the air stays better. The other thing that helps is I rarely have long time periods in the shop. Too many other things demand attention.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Chris Parks; the 5"port on all Hammer machines goes into a 4" duct behind it. I think the European regulation specifies a 5" port and Hammer fulfill that obligation but then cut costs by installing the 4" duct.[/QUOTE]

Hi Chris, I don't believe there's a regulation for port size however in the EU the machines are actually tested for dust emissions.

My saw/shaper for example comes with a declaration that it meets the maximum of 2.0mg per cubic meter as specified by DIN 38893.

I have never seen a North American machine that was tested to any standard, nor any of the generic import machines.

Regards, Rod.

[Phil Thien]

The comment that small dust is easier to get to move seems right but is really wrong. It is true that it will move easily but that isn't just in the direction of the DC. It also moves easily out of range of the DC. Larger pieces move less easily but that means they don't "get away". If you want to be sure you get all the fine dust, you need to clear the air from a larger area because it will move farther from the source of generation. Maybe I have the velocity thing wrong but I am sure that the Pentz point is a big DC is necessary to get all the fine dust. My practical experience is hard to pin down because I was switching filtration but seems to be consistent with fine dust being harder to collect.

The "open the doors" comment is, of course, the practical alternative for many of us. My current shop has a 9 foot wide garage door on the front and a normal 3 foot passage door on the back. Plus a couple windows. I normally have the windows closed but at least the garage door open. Bugs like the opening, of course, but the air stays better. The other thing that helps is I rarely have long time periods in the shop. Too many other things demand attention.

You know, before the particle counter group buys (I think there were at least three of them), we had a sort of mass-hysteria setting in. People bought the notion that our shops were full of super-fine dust that never settles. Users here and elsewhere were lining-up to buy large cyclones, and there was thread after thread talking about the measures people were taking to collect the dust nobody can see.

So then the particle counter group buys happened and those with 1.5-DC's, 4" ductwork, and decent filters (either cartridge or good bags) realized their systems worked remarkably well. Make sure you have above-table collection, add an air filter, and your shops air will be very clean.

I've got nothing against large cyclones and big ductwork. Bigger is always better (provided you have the room, don't mind the noise, have the money, etc.).

But the particle counter results were conclusive. You don't need 6"+ ductwork and a 3+ HP blower to get the fine dust.

[Chris Parks]

Hi Chris, I don't believe there's a regulation for port size however in the EU the machines are actually tested for dust emissions.

My saw/shaper for example comes with a declaration that it meets the maximum of 2.0mg per cubic meter as specified by DIN 38893.

I have never seen a North American machine that was tested to any standard, nor any of the generic import machines.

Regards, Rod.

Rod, I just presumed that because I can't see them fitting a bigger port than necessary and then to put 4" behind the port does not make any sense beyond cost savings.

[Chris Parks]

You know, before the particle counter group buys (I think there were at least three of them), we had a sort of mass-hysteria setting in. People bought the notion that our shops were full of super-fine dust that never settles. Users here and elsewhere were lining-up to buy large cyclones, and there was thread after thread talking about the measures people were taking to collect the dust nobody can see.

So then the particle counter group buys happened and those with 1.5-DC's, 4" ductwork, and decent filters (either cartridge or good bags) realized their systems worked remarkably well. Make sure you have above-table collection, add an air filter, and your shops air will be very clean.

I've got nothing against large cyclones and big ductwork. Bigger is always better (provided you have the room, don't mind the noise, have the money, etc.).

But the particle counter results were conclusive. You don't need 6"+ ductwork and a 3+ HP blower to get the fine dust.

I know a scientist who has vast practical experience in this stuff who would like to debate that with you Phil. Would you like to take up the offer as I can arrange it anytime.

[Phil Thien]

I know a scientist who has vast practical experience in this stuff who would like to debate that with you Phil. Would you like to take up the offer as I can arrange it anytime.

This is a free and open forum, anyone is welcome to post any data that would refute anything I have said.

Here is an interesting read from Matthias:

http://woodgears.ca/dust/dylos.html

[Julie Moriarty]

... and those with 1.5-DC's, 4" ductwork, and decent filters (either cartridge or good bags) realized their systems worked remarkably well. Make sure you have above-table collection, add an air filter, and your shops air will be very clean.

I have that 1.5HP DC with 4" ductwork and the only problems I have with dust comes from poor collection at the source, as you noted. And it's at the source I have the most challenges, when it comes to getting the waste directed to the DC. The older the tool, the more challenging good dust collection is, in my experience.

[Phil Thien]

I have that 1.5HP DC with 4" ductwork and the only problems I have with dust comes from poor collection at the source, as you noted. And it's at the source I have the most challenges, when it comes to getting the waste directed to the DC. The older the tool, the more challenging good dust collection is, in my experience.

That is why an ambient air cleaner is so helpful.

I know people, experts some would say, that practice what they preach and try to adapt larger and better hoods to devices like sanders and still find they can't get it all with 3-HP and larger dust collectors running through 6" pipes! From a disk sander!

You get what you can at the source, and let the air cleaner take care of the rest.

Someone is going to come along here any second now and say something like, "well Phil, you're breathing the same dirty air as the ambient air cleaner." And they're right. But, the ambient air cleaner is breathing it 1000x faster than you. So yes, you breath some air with wood dust, but the concentrations are diminishing quickly.

And if you go over to the Mattias page I linked above, you'll see how easy it is to quickly reduce concentration levels by doing something as easy as pointing a fan at an air filter.

You can also find comparisons of conventional (bagged) DC's to cyclones.

The ambient air cleaner has really gotten a bad rap. The reality is, no shop should be without one. I'm not saying not to do everything you can at the tool (within reason). I'm just saying there are always limits.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, I just presumed that because I can't see them fitting a bigger port than necessary and then to put 4" behind the port does not make any sense beyond cost savings.

Understood Chris, I think it has a 120mm port because that's what they use on all their small machines, and on a combination machine the same hose is moved from jointer to planer to saw to the shaper etc.

regards, Rod.