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Thread: Bevel Up Plane Sharpening and Back Bevel Wear

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post
    The ruler trick bevel is 2/3rds of one degree. This makes an insignificantly small change to the clearance angle, and it does not change with time.

    Derek,

    I can't see why the different direction of stroke should make much difference to width of RT polish. Both keep edge no more than 1/4 inch on to stone.

    The reason I prefer crosswise is that lengthwise is an invitation for the unwary to produce a convex surface, (in the width).

    Point pressure in the center is more likely to produce flat.

    By the way, Rob has a new you tube video about preparing a Woodriver 5 1/2 which I think is rather good, except for the length ways perversion ~;-)#

    However he and Derek would probably not count as unwary!

    best wishes,
    David

    Hi David

    I have not given thought till now that there may be two "methods" of the RT, and if one is "better". I suspect that the procedure I use creates a smaller back bevel, and that this is easier to remove, if one so chooses. It is equally interesting that there may be two options to follow. I have not put them side by side, and so I am just curious whether there are differences. Perhaps you can comment. Other voices are invited as well.

    What is the difference? Well in your original method you demonstrated moving the back of the bevel over the edge of the stone, drawing it back about 1/4"-3/8", and then repeating this movement. This should create a tapered back bevel in width. In the method I use, the blade is moved in a side-to-side movement. I attempt to keep a straight, unwavering line just inside the edge of the stone. This creates a narrower back bevel.



    Here is a picture of Deneb (at LN) in the forward position ...



    ... and the rear position ..



    There is a Youtube video here (look at the 2:30 minute mark): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOvqbrdNZBU

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 05-07-2015 at 11:52 AM.

  2. #32
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    Whatever about the differences, a quick look at 5.40 on this Rob Cosman video shows precisely why the ruler trick is at times so useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYM08CSopNA

  3. #33
    Derek,

    I do like your pictures, very clear!

    Originally I preferred crosswise for three reasons.

    1. I felt it made preserving flatness of width easier.

    2. I prefer to have my stone scratches at rightangles to the edge.

    3. There would be no tendency to dig a groove into the length of the (soft) stone.

    Deneb has changed to the lengthways perversion but cannot remember the reason.

    Harrelson is a man who prefers lateral scratches but I can't imagine why.

    I will continue to practice my original method as it works very well for me.

    There has never been a reason to remove the ruler trick polish on a blade so I have no idea if it would take long! Can't understand why this question comes up so much.

    best wishes,
    David
    Last edited by david charlesworth; 05-07-2015 at 1:55 PM.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    Whatever about the differences, a quick look at 5.40 on this Rob Cosman video shows precisely why the ruler trick is at times so useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYM08CSopNA
    OK, I took the bait and watched the video. I have no idea how this shows that the ruler trick is useful. What I notice is that Cosman spends more time polishing the back with his ruler trick than anyone would need to with a flat back, right on the stone. The only difference I can see is that you have to find your ruler, lay it in position, be careful not to disturb it while you're flattening, and then clean the ruler off when you're done. A small annoyance, but an annoyance nonetheless, every.single.time.you.sharpen, for the rest of your life. No thanks.
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  5. #35
    Steve,

    I have not seen the video, but your first point demonstrates thet you have completely missed the point.

    If there is wear to be removed, and a wire edge, it will be significantly quicker and more reliable with the ruler trick.

    However I have no expectation that you will agree.........

    David Charlesworth

  6. #36
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    Although this is now veering away from the op as I rarely use a BU plane. However I've actually started to try the method David Charlesworth has shown on some shapton ha-no-kuromaku #5000 & #12000. It's led me to think that there is no real time to be saved with any particular method. If and when David Weaver (well worth checking out his channel https://www.youtube.com/user/daw162) does a video on plane sharpening I suspect it'll be very quick but for now most methods I've tried or seen take similar amounts of time which is not very long at all. What can be said is the method David Charlesworth shows works very well and it'll be no surprise the resultant edges are superb.

  7. #37
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    Yeah, that 3 second procedure each.and.every.time.you.sharpen has to be really annoying. LOL. Actually, I'm impressed that some people get so good at the whole process they don't need tricks. Must be the difference between them pro's and us amateurs. I keep forgetting that we aren't all the same level of expertise here. There are many ways to skin this cat after all.

  8. #38
    David,

    I was responding to the claim that the video shows why the ruler trick is useful. If you haven't watched the video, I don't see how you are in a position to pass judgement.


    If there is wear to be removed, and a wire edge, it will be significantly quicker and more reliable with the ruler trick.
    I'll repeat what I said before: In the video, he works the back longer than is necessary without the ruler trick (given a properly flattened back). So how is it "significantly quicker?" If you want to come back and tell me that he is working the back a lot longer than you would, then that's a better argument. But I have a feeling he's not…
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    I'll repeat what I said before: In the video, he works the back longer than is necessary without the ruler trick (given a properly flattened back). So how is it "significantly quicker?"
    He has just flattened the back on a 1000 grit stone, and then using the ruler trick, he spends 10 seconds on the back with a 16000 grit stone. Are you saying you need less than 10 seconds to flatten the entire back of a plane iron when making a grit step of that size?

    Or are you referring to an earlier part of the video I didn't watch where he does stuff having nothing to do with the ruler trick?
    Last edited by Alan Schwabacher; 05-07-2015 at 4:02 PM.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schwabacher View Post
    He has just flattened the back on a 1000 grit stone, and then using the ruler trick, he spends 10 seconds on the back with a 16000 grit stone. Are you saying you need less than 10 seconds to flatten the entire back of a plane iron when making a grit step of that size?

    Or are you referring to an earlier part of the video I didn't watch where he does stuff having nothing to do with the ruler trick?
    Why would you flatten the entire back? I would do the last 1 1/2 - 2 inches. A lot of people would do considerably less than that.
    You're right though; I missed that he is coming from a 1000 stone. So no, I would not spend less time--in fact I would spend more--on the initial flattening. But that doesn't affect the essential point, which is that it takes but a few seconds on a flat back to knock off the wear and the wire edge, so where is the great time savings?
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  11. #41
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    Just to add, the back of my Wood River blade was not flat when I got it new. Also if you listen to Rob Cosman, he is doing the initial flattening on a new blade (and plane).

    Edit: Sorry Steve I must have missed your last post, but I will leave mine anyway.
    Last edited by John Schtrumpf; 05-07-2015 at 5:33 PM.

  12. #42
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    Sorry guys, i didn't mean to be vague either. I was trying to keep it focused on the fundamental of why one or other method might make the best sense or at least be a realistic option in a given situation. Not to argue that one or other one size fits all option is always the best. What i meant to point out in the video was simply that judging by the area it shows as having been worked using the ruler trick and it's shape the WR iron was at first sharpening (not the same as subsequent sharpenings) quite a bit out of flat. (there's a very clear view showing that a large area had been worked using the ruler at the time listed) Against that it also demonstrated very nicely that the ruler trick is a quick and effective way to get over this issue - if it's present. Full marks to Rob C for showing it for real.

    What i was trying say in perhaps a somewhat indirect way is that if you get a very flat iron then there's clearly less incentive to think in terms of using ther ruler trick. So far all i've had is about five from Lee Valley, and one from Clifton - and all six cleaned up in a few minutes without a ruler on a 1,000 grit Shapton. The Clifton took a bit more, but was still good. Every other example of those brands in the world could be very different for all i know...

    There may be other scenarios i'm missing, but the second issue which i've been pointing to as well is that it's also very easy to start with a very flat iron - and as a result of either trying to flatten it on a less than perfectly flat waterstone (and even with the best will in the world its easy to accidentally do this - David has been a pioneer in setting out well thought through ways to avoid this problem), or of mishandling it on the stone (e.g. applying uneven pressure) it's very easy to end up dubbing the back of the iron enough to matter. Bearing in mind that a few microns are literally the difference between polishing right up to the cutting edge and properly removing any wire edge when working a flat back - and not.

    There's two basic options open to us. The first is to be very picky and precise indeed about how we handle the flattening of our waterstones and how we work our irons on them - much more picky than i suspect that many of us are. The alternative is to head for the ruler, or else maybe to finish off our sharpening with a reasonably heavy stropping - both techniques that don't require quite the same level of geometric precision.

    I guess the point is that in the big picture there's going to be a technique that works best for each of us - given our preferences, methods and how we apply them. There's as before an argument for not using the ruler on a bevel up, but as before it's not a show stopper. Against that i'd not want to ruler trick a BU quite a heavily as in the video, and as before preferably not at all if it's avoidable. The plane there though is a BD, and consequently it's not an issue there.

    Guess what i'm trying to communicate is the view that these are all techniques that can be used when the occasion demands, and as suits - although the ruler trick is potentially a much less demanding way of getting a plane working well in a short time, and at times/with a less than perfectly flat iron and stone (short of spending huge amounts of time back flattening - and what do you do if e.g. your diamond plate is less than perfectly flat) may be the only practical route. Tools in our mental toolbox so to speak...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 05-08-2015 at 5:26 AM. Reason: clarity

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    OK, I took the bait and watched the video. I have no idea how this shows that the ruler trick is useful. What I notice is that Cosman spends more time polishing the back with his ruler trick than anyone would need to with a flat back, right on the stone. The only difference I can see is that you have to find your ruler, lay it in position, be careful not to disturb it while you're flattening, and then clean the ruler off when you're done. A small annoyance, but an annoyance nonetheless, every.single.time.you.sharpen, for the rest of your life. No thanks.

    Disclaimer 1: I have not watched that video
    Disclaimer 2: I don't use the ruler trick
    Disclaimer 3: You are not allowed to ask me why I don't use it ;-)

    ... But I have 2 of David's books, and I believe I read about it there years ago, and I think it is useful.

    In a perfect world, our stones are perfectly flat up to the very edges, and in a perfect world we can hold our blades perfectly parallel to that stone, and even move the blade back and forth, so that both perfect planes meet and a wire edge is removed with little work.

    Using the ruler trick eliminates the need for all those "perfectly" conditions. I would lie if I said that my blades never tip up from having about 80% of the blade unsupported on the stone, I assume it has happened to all of us, I think the ruler trick helps minimize this, it virtually guarantees that you are always working that wire edge.

    Pedro

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