Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Saw setting and filing questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,209

    Saw setting and filing questions

    I have had good success filing rip saws with a very basic, match the teeth that are on there and just file straight across at a 90 degree angle kind of plan. I have not such good success with cross-cut saws. One old backsaw I tried to rehabilitate is barely useable, and I think it is a combination of a bad plan laying out the teeth, a lack of understanding of how the file is supposedly sharpening both the front tooth and the back tooth simultaneously (if that is what it is supposed to be doing) and inadvertently applying way too much set. I think I also used poor judgment trying to file and set teeth I can barely see for my first attempt.

    I have a couple of panel saws I want to get into shape, along with a couple of backsaws. I am going to start with a panel saw, 8 TPI is about what is on it, and I am looking for some advice on a very basic, unlikely to lead to complete disaster, kind of filing scheme. I do not need rocket assisted sawdust ejection or the other things I read about for this one, I just want it to work reasonably well, and hopefully gain a little more understanding of how and why it works in the process. Really looking to just crawl across the room here, not so much walk or run. So some basic questions:

    How far off of 90 should I align the file laterally, how far above or below the tooth line (anglewise, on the Z axis or whatever) should I align the file handle, and should I be bearing more on the teeth ahead of the file or behind (or is that not even a question that makes sense)? Those are my basic questions as to filing. If it helps I have read the information at Vintage Saws, but I think I am having trouble visualizing what he is explaining.

    I have a decent file, a decent vise, and two saw sets. One is an Eclipse, and the other is a Millers Falls 214, which I read somewhere is idiot proof, so it is the one I will probably use. If anybody has any experience with that model, and has particular tips or a source for a manual to help me make sure I don't do anything to sully the reputation of the Millers Falls Company, I would appreciate it!

    As to setting, I think I want to start with the smallest number on the Millers Falls dial and work up from there until I get enough set. Is that a good plan? That is not what I did with the Eclipse, because I was told to match the number on the dial to the TPI, and I think that is why I ended up with a bad case of overset on the backsaw.

    Many thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Lawrence View Post
    How far off of 90 should I align the file laterally, how far above or below the tooth line (anglewise, on the Z axis or whatever) should I align the file handle, and should I be bearing more on the teeth ahead of the file or behind (or is that not even a question that makes sense)? Those are my basic questions as to filing. If it helps I have read the information at Vintage Saws, but I think I am having trouble visualizing what he is explaining.
    I think Vintage Saws recommends 25 degrees laterally ("fleam"), versus 10-ish degrees for the rake. It's the fleam I've used and has worked well so far. I painted a big V on my workbench, centered to the saw vise, and use that as a visual guide. As for above/below the tooth line, zero degrees. I haven't experimented with other angles, which would seem to provide the rocket assisted sawdust ejection that others say is totally possible

    The tip about painting the teeth with a black permanent marker to see your progress is invaluable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Lawrence View Post
    As to setting, I think I want to start with the smallest number on the Millers Falls dial and work up from there until I get enough set. Is that a good plan? That is not what I did with the Eclipse, because I was told to match the number on the dial to the TPI, and I think that is why I ended up with a bad case of overset on the backsaw.
    Yeah, it's definitely better to increase the set gradually (until the saw doesn't bind, I suppose) than to try to correct an overset saw.

    (If you have overset, no biggie - just push the teeth together on a steel vise until you are happy. This is the caveman way which always works.)

    Don't worry about screwing up a saw - you can always file it again, and it definitely takes practice. Every time you do it, you'll get better. I'm not at rocket-powered sawdust ejection yet, but one of these days...

    (For the obsession - https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/.../Saw%20Spectra is nice.)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Lawrence View Post
    If it helps I have read the information at Vintage Saws, but I think I am having trouble visualizing what he is explaining.
    You might find this one helpful:
    http://wkfinetools.com/contrib/Ciant...owIfile-01.asp



    How far off of 90 should I align the file laterally, how far above or below the tooth line (anglewise, on the Z axis or whatever) should I align the file handle
    For a crosscut, around 20° of fleam is good. That's how much you are left or right of 90°. You also want around 12° rake; that's how much you rotate the face of the file away from vertical. Keep the file handle more or less level with the toothline. That's slope; you don't really want to mess with that until you are pretty good at filing (I never mess with it).


    should I be bearing more on the teeth ahead of the file or behind (or is that not even a question that makes sense)?
    It definitely makes sense. It depends whether you are shaping the teeth (the first step) or sharpening them (second step). When you are rough shaping, you can vary front tooth/back tooth pressure to correct uneven spacing. You're not adding fleam at this stage. After the teeth are shaped, you want to re-joint them to get little flats on each tooth. Then you sharpen, adding in the fleam. This is where you adjust the pressure on the front or back tooth. For example, if you notice the flat is almost gone on one tooth, but still huge on the other tooth, adjust the pressure accordingly. Just remember that if you're working from left to right, on your final pass you want the flat on your left to disappear, but the one on the right to still have a tiny bit left, because you're going to work it again when you move to the next tooth.

    If you find all that overwhelming, don't worry about it for now. Step one is getting the teeth sharp, with the right rake and fleam. Step two is getting them all the same height, and may take you a couple sharpenings. If they are uneven heights, just joint the saw again very lightly, and clean up only the teeth that show flats.


    I have a decent file, a decent vise, and two saw sets. One is an Eclipse, and the other is a Millers Falls 214, which I read somewhere is idiot proof, so it is the one I will probably use. If anybody has any experience with that model, and has particular tips or a source for a manual to help me make sure I don't do anything to sully the reputation of the Millers Falls Company, I would appreciate it!

    As to setting, I think I want to start with the smallest number on the Millers Falls dial and work up from there until I get enough set. Is that a good plan? That is not what I did with the Eclipse, because I was told to match the number on the dial to the TPI, and I think that is why I ended up with a bad case of overset on the backsaw.
    I have the Eclipse. It's a good set, your initial bad experience notwithstanding. For an 8-pt. saw, I would start with the anvil around 7 or 8. It's always a good idea to start with a conservative setting if you're not familiar with the set. Set a few teeth all the way back at the heel of the saw and see how they look.
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  4. #4
    You said you have "a" decent file. That's important, but it sounds like your file is too big for the back saw you worked on. The back saw needs an extra slim taper at least, while your 8 pt can turn out well with a slim taper. Don't expect your file to last through a lot of sharpenings. A half dozen trips along a full-sized saw can take the life out of a file--the corners usually go first.

    It's all very satisfying though, and you will get better. Reread some of the texts. You will grasp new things with each reading (with some practice between readings).

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    92
    You do have a saw filing vise I trust, otherwise check out the LN UTube videos. You may also find the Paul Sellers vidoes on UTube helpful. Get good lighting, you probably will not need magnification for teeth this size, unless you are old and fading like me.

    1. For 8 ppi (points per inch) use a 6" Slim or 7" Extra Slim.
    2. Check the teeth - are they more or less evenly spaced and the same size. If no, practice on another saw, if yes, then -
    3. Joint the teeth with a millsaw file until you have some flat on each tooth (if there are a few teeth well down, ignore them for the present, future sharpenings will find them)
    4. Run a RED marker along the teeth - much easier to see than black against the old teeth
    5. Make yourself a little block (as on Vintage Saws) to hold the file at the correct angles, draw the angles on a sheet of paper and place behind the vise
    6. Start at the heel and file the back of the first tooth facing (set) away from you until you remove half the flat on that tooth (you get better control by filing on the back, rather than the front of the tooth), with the file pointing towards the toe
    7. Work down the saw for the length of the vise or 10", every second tooth
    8. Do not turn saw around in the vise, change your stance and work your way back towards the heel, every other second tooth, leaving a very tiny flat on each tooth (this run along the saw is for shaping the teeth, if you aim for sharp points you are guaranteed to make some teeth too small, albeit sharp)
    9. Check your work, touch up teeth that still have too much flat, filing the back of the teeth. You get a much better final result if you do not try and get a sharp point at this stage, focus on shaping
    10. When happy, then do the rest of the saw the same way. The teeth are now shaped. If you have stuffed this up, think about it, and do another section of teeth. If still stuffing up, rejoint saw and start again
    11. Set the teeth along the whole saw using the Eclipse, easier to get a consistent result than the MF (which I do use and like - but it is rather heavy)
    12. Lightly joint the teeth again, paint them red
    13. Lightly file in the same manner as above, just to the point where the flat is going...gone. Again, better to leave a few tiny flats than to go too far
    14. Lightly run an oil stone along the teeth each side to remove any burr and even the set. Don't push down, just the weight of the stone
    15. Test cut. If saw wanders, left or right, check whether it is your technique or the set of the saw and fix one or both.

    You are underway.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Coastal Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,824
    Ron Herman's video is straight forward and makes a good reference.
    It touches on all the subjects raised, above.

    I wouldn't bother with crosscut filing on teeth smaller than 10 tpi.

    What I would suggest is that the jointing step is more important than most of us think -
    if only a few teeth are actively cutting on a given stroke, the saw will cut slowly and 'grab'.

    Much as the OP has indicated, there's some confusion about what is actually cutting on a file.
    I'm under the impression that the corners do most of the cutting, and when they're
    rounded over, the file is no longer shaping the teeth.

    When you're just following the contours of the existing teeth, you'll get "Hens and Chicks"
    the uneven teeth that jointing should correct.

    Lastly, the amount of set for crosscut teeth is dependent on what you're cutting.
    Some species are more fibrous and need more clearance for the points to score the kerf.

    The stuff I cut (American Cherry, Black Walnut, White and Red Oak) crosscuts more easily
    and needs less set to keep the kerf clear.

    Lastly - I would suggest you keep a little light oil handy for sawing.
    A swipe of Camellia oil makes most everything I cut easier.

    That's particularly evident in thicker stock, or longer rips where lots of saw plate is 'buried' in the kerf.

    Get Ron's video - it's a keeper. Listen to the sound made as the he goes, that's an indicator of proper chip removal with the file on metal.

    http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/sharpening-hand-saws

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dickinson, Texas
    Posts
    7,655
    Blog Entries
    1
    Listen to Jim. I've had good luck with Ron Hermans video. It is available as a download on the Popular Woodworking site.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 05-07-2015 at 2:30 PM. Reason: sp

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies and links. I am going to try shaping the teeth without fleam, and then adding the fleam angle on a subsequent pass. It is one of those things that should have been blindingly obvious, but for whatever reason was not.

    I have a saw vise and multiple sizes of files, and deployed the full array of jigs, reference marks, etc. I think the problems I have had with the cross-cut saws resulted from trying to correct too many defects at once, over set, and and general ham handedness. There may be other problems with my approach I have yet to identify, but I am confident the file is not to blame.

    Again, this has been very helpful, and I thank you all for the insights.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Coastal Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,824
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Lawrence View Post
    I think the problems I have had with the cross-cut saws resulted from trying to correct too many defects at once, over set, and and general ham handedness.
    You're not the first, and won't be the last.

    It took me a while to realize that I can't rehab some
    of my favorite saws, in one go.

    There's lots of teeth on a saw, get most of them working together
    and you're ahead of the game.

    You'll get it, a little at a time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •